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Thread started 03 Jan 2018 (Wednesday) 08:28
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6D mark II...Did we make a mistake?

 
Wilt
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
Feb 02, 2018 13:44 |  #151

Charlie wrote in post #18554809 (external link)
I've had a toyota and lexus, and they dont use the same parts.

if you're getting a toyota that uses nearly the same parts, such as an avalon with premium features, compared to baseline lexus 3 series, the price would be very close. Marketing is a factor, but you're also getting added value even if you dont realize/appreciate it.

And then you read comments like,
"I've found that Toyota uses "twinning" -- using the same chassis for two different cars, the Camry and the Lexus. So basically they're the same car, but with a $10,000 difference in cost....

"The first through fourth generation Lexus ES sedans also shared body styling elements with the Camry, but each generation has seen fewer and fewer similarities between cars. "

"but there is massive scope for variation in internal components, engines, tuning levels, transmissions, suspension design and components (including extended expensive development to further improve the ride over the basic versions) , trim levels and seat comfort, sound insulation/NVH choices of materials."
" https://ask.metafilter​.com …tween-a-Camry-and-a-Lexus (external link)


"The Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES are powered by the same 3.5-liter V-6 engine, which is also used in the Highlander, Camry and Lexus RX. The 2.5-liter hybrid powertrain is the exact same as well. Mechanically speaking, the Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus GX are exactly the same, just like certain other Lexus and Toyota vehicles." http://www.t3atlanta.c​om …between-lexus-and-toyota/ (external link)

"The Toyota Avalon and Lexus ES are most similar under the skin, as they share a platform, transmissions and engines with almost no modification from one model to the other. Standard in both cars, for instance, is a 268-horsepower 3.5-liter V6 engine that's hooked up to a 6-speed automatic transmission and front-wheel drive -- a combination that's rated at 21 mpg in the city and 31 mpg on the highway in both cars. Opt for the fuel-efficient Avalon Hybrid or Lexus ES 300h, and you'll be driving a 200-hp 2.5-liter hybrid 4-cylinder capable of reaching 40 mpg city/39 mpg hwy." https://www.autotrader​.com …ats-the-difference-229780 (external link)

The engines may not be identical, but I bet that there are a lot of common components shared between engines.

The Germans do it too, in VW vs. Audi.


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Feb 02, 2018 13:51 |  #152

One thing that Canon has done a piss poor to ridiculous job in accomplishing and which would have cost peanuts in R&D costs and absolutely nothing in production costs is to supply a decent manual for the 6D2' either in print or as a file online.

Canon traditionally has not done the best job in presenting manuals but, this manual is really bad with some incorrect information and lots of needed information left out.


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eddieb1
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Feb 02, 2018 14:05 |  #153

RPCrowe wrote in post #18554836 (external link)
One thing that Canon has done a piss poor to ridiculous job in accomplishing and which would have cost peanuts in R&D costs and absolutely nothing in production costs is to supply a decent manual for the 6D2' either in print or as a file online.

Canon traditionally has not done the best job in presenting manuals but, this manual is really bad with some incorrect information and lots of needed information left out.

That’s why I normally go to Borders and pick up a how to book for my new canons. Yeah I know it’s an added expense, but I gat can you do?




  
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Wilt
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt. (4 edits in all)
     
Feb 02, 2018 14:13 |  #154

RPCrowe wrote in post #18554836 (external link)
One thing that Canon has done a piss poor to ridiculous job in accomplishing and which would have cost peanuts in R&D costs and absolutely nothing in production costs is to supply a decent manual for the 6D2' either in print or as a file online.

Canon traditionally has not done the best job in presenting manuals but, this manual is really bad with some incorrect information and lots of needed information left out.

The bad user manual content is not unique to the 6DII. In researching the T6i for a response to an owner, I found in the index it mentions metering timer on page 205 and page 250 live view metering timer on p. 205, it mentions you can change settings but give zero mention of HOW to make changes.

Yet the index, while refering to pages 205 and 250 neglects to refer the user to

  • page 363 has the reference information for what time options exist for Live View metering timer.
  • page 368 has the reference information for what general time options exist for the metering timer.

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Feb 02, 2018 17:12 |  #155

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18554717 (external link)
Rod and Charlie,

I completely understand what you are saying. . Recently, I decided to buy a backup camera that offers better image quality than my main body (the 1D4).

I had to be VERY budget-conscious, and found that within Canon's DSLR lineup, the 6D and the 6D2 seem to give the best IQ for the buck. . When comparing one with the other, I was surprised at how much more the 6D2 costs, and at how little of an advantage it provided. . This disparity just didn't seem to make sense.

So of course, I bought a 6D2. . And it was only $700. . I feel like I have a camera that for all practical purposes is the same as the 6D2, but for less than half the cost. . A no-brainer for me.

Until Canon offers new cameras that offer the same "bang for the buck" that older used cameras offer, I will never buy a new camera from them.

.

I'm gonna guess and say that is a typo and you bought a 6D for $700 (not 6D2 as typed). If I could find a 6D for a good price I'd probably buy it. The motivator would be high ISO noise compared to my 7D2. For my expected usage the upgrades in the 6D2 are not required so for me, not worth the extra cash.

Rod


>>> Pictures? What pictures? <<<<

  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Feb 03, 2018 05:37 |  #156

RodS57 wrote in post #18554984 (external link)
I'm gonna guess and say that is a typo and you bought a 6D for $700 (not 6D2 as typed). If I could find a 6D for a good price I'd probably buy it. The motivator would be high ISO noise compared to my 7D2. For my expected usage the upgrades in the 6D2 are not required so for me, not worth the extra cash.

As an owner of both, I would say, walk and think; don't run. The high-ISO difference that you allege exists only if you also use larger glass, with larger physical apertures.

The 6D has 0.6 stops more post-gain ("low ISO") read noise per unit of sensor area than the the 7D2, and only 1/3 stop less pre-gain ("high ISO") read noise per unit of sensor area, and the 7D2 noise is finer and more random, I think, with less outliers.

Sure, a 100% pixel view at ISO 12800 looks better from the 6D, especially with the same lens with marginal sharpness, which is more resolution when you use more of its image circle, but when you use different size sensors at the same ISO, that is not an equitable comparison, which almost everyone seems to ignore or forget. The same angle of view with the same ISO absolutely requires shallower DOF on the FF, and larger physical apertures. There's no way around that. The fact is, without a bigger aperture, all that a bigger sensor does for you is capture a larger area of the image circle, and no more light from anything within the frame.

My 6D sits at home most of the time while I'm using the 7D2, even if I expect to be using ISO 16000. The 6D comes with me when I want to use very wide angles and/or very low f-numbers (the 6D's microlenses don't start losing light until about f/2, as opposed to about f/2.5 on the 7D2), otherwise, it's the 7D2. For focal-length-limited uses, a 1.6x crop from the 6D is noisier at the lower end of the ISO scale, especially if HTP is used, and at high ISOs, photon noise is the same, read noise is only 0.33 stops lower for the 6D and more chromatic, as I recall, resolution puts only 39% as many pixels on subject, the AF is more primitive, there is no joystick, or EC in "M with auto-ISO", etc.

I don't mean to be a downer, but unless your main interest is wider angles of view, full circles from fish-eye lenses, and shooting with the shallowest DOF possible with the right (especially f/2.8 and more open), larger lenses, the FF benefit of the 6D over the 7D2 is a good part hype.




  
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Feb 03, 2018 08:13 as a reply to  @ post 18554678 |  #157

Me too... I’m glad that I took advantage of the holiday sales. $1,300 sans taxes for the 6Dii and battery grip less the $700 sale of my previous 6D. $600 in out of pocket cash considering the grip is $200. So the $400 to update the camera is good.




  
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RodS57
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Feb 03, 2018 16:46 |  #158

John Sheehy wrote in post #18555278 (external link)
As an owner of both, I would say, walk and think; don't run. The high-ISO difference that you allege exists only if you also use larger glass, with larger physical apertures.

The 6D has 0.6 stops more post-gain ("low ISO") read noise per unit of sensor area than the the 7D2, and only 1/3 stop less pre-gain ("high ISO") read noise per unit of sensor area, and the 7D2 noise is finer and more random, I think, with less outliers.

Sure, a 100% pixel view at ISO 12800 looks better from the 6D, especially with the same lens with marginal sharpness, which is more resolution when you use more of its image circle, but when you use different size sensors at the same ISO, that is not an equitable comparison, which almost everyone seems to ignore or forget. The same angle of view with the same ISO absolutely requires shallower DOF on the FF, and larger physical apertures. There's no way around that. The fact is, without a bigger aperture, all that a bigger sensor does for you is capture a larger area of the image circle, and no more light from anything within the frame.

My 6D sits at home most of the time while I'm using the 7D2, even if I expect to be using ISO 16000. The 6D comes with me when I want to use very wide angles and/or very low f-numbers (the 6D's microlenses don't start losing light until about f/2, as opposed to about f/2.5 on the 7D2), otherwise, it's the 7D2. For focal-length-limited uses, a 1.6x crop from the 6D is noisier at the lower end of the ISO scale, especially if HTP is used, and at high ISOs, photon noise is the same, read noise is only 0.33 stops lower for the 6D and more chromatic, as I recall, resolution puts only 39% as many pixels on subject, the AF is more primitive, there is no joystick, or EC in "M with auto-ISO", etc.

I don't mean to be a downer, but unless your main interest is wider angles of view, full circles from fish-eye lenses, and shooting with the shallowest DOF possible with the right (especially f/2.8 and more open), larger lenses, the FF benefit of the 6D over the 7D2 is a good part hype.

Not a downer by any means. I don't know anyone with a FF camera so I can only regurgitate what I've read on the internet. On the bright side, now I don't need one of those either. :-)

Rod


>>> Pictures? What pictures? <<<<

  
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Feb 06, 2018 08:35 as a reply to  @ RodS57's post |  #159

Looks like Canon is a BIG winner. He can do anything he wants and still be a No1 seller.
He puts old sensor/technology in new camera and charge you a fortune.
Average shooters don't mind because they are not knowledgeable and Canon fanboys don't care because they are loyal.


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Feb 06, 2018 10:08 |  #160

Mathmans wrote in post #18557591 (external link)
Looks like Canon is a BIG winner. He can do anything he wants and still be a No1 seller.
He puts old sensor/technology in new camera and charge you a fortune.
Average shooters don't mind because they are ignorant and Canon fanboys don't care because they are loyal.

LOL (-:
Sounds about right from what I have seen.

Rod

Edit: wanna fix this and say ignorant as in not knowledgeable about the finer points, I know I was when I made my first purchase.


>>> Pictures? What pictures? <<<<

  
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Feb 06, 2018 10:27 as a reply to  @ RodS57's post |  #161

Thanks Rod; post fixed
Regards


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Wilt
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Wilt.
     
Feb 06, 2018 10:43 |  #162

Mathmans wrote in post #18557591 (external link)
Looks like Canon is a BIG winner. He can do anything he wants and still be a No1 seller.
He puts old sensor/technology in new camera and charge you a fortune.


Companies and products are the preferred vendor/product for a whole host of reasons, and they don't always end up being 'the best' on every spec.

This has been already discussed multiple times, but a vendor does not always want to drive the market to the combination of lowest price + highest performance, their stockholders demand best financial results (maximize profit). If that is accomplished by making the 6DII only marginally better than the 6D in IQ, while adding benefits of new features and better specs in other areas, on its own merit the 6DII is indeed 'better' and it still yields really darned good IQ. Much of the photographic community is focused, though, on IQ improvement being marginally better. But Canon needs to drive demand of the higher end higher profit margin models, to maximize profit and satisfy stockholders.


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Feb 06, 2018 12:28 |  #163

Wonder how many people criticising the 6d II have an iPhone? Clearly not the best in the market, clearly the most expensive, but bought anyway, presumably because they like/know/trust the brand and have already bought into the ecosystem, ring any bells?


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Feb 06, 2018 13:21 |  #164

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18557765 (external link)
Wonder how many people criticizing the 6d II have an iPhone? . Clearly not the best in the market . . .

Really?

I don't have an iPhone, but I thought that they were the best smartphones made today.

But you not only say that they are not the best, but that they are clearly not the best. . So I guess that based on that, they are way way way behind some other type of phone?

Yet even if they are not the best phone, if I were to buy a smartphone, I would buy an iPhone. . Why? . Because they are so commonly used. . This means that any time I am "stuck" and can't figure out how to use it for something, there will be a YouTube tutorial that walks me through whatever it is that I need help with. . And because iPhones are so common, there are lots and lots of apps that are made for them, and they are compatible with so many things. . And whenever I am amongst a bunch of people, someone will invariably have an iPhone, and be able to help me when I am confused about how to use mine.

Technology always utterly confuses me, so these points are actually my #1 consideration when selecting a new product. . First and foremost, I need to choose a brand / product that people can help me with. . That trumps every other factor. . Having something that is the "best" at doing stuff will be of no use to me, because I will never be able to figure out how to use any of those awesome features unless millions and millions of other people are also using them and can help me learn to use them, too.

These are the very same reasons that I went with Canon when I bought photography gear. . I wanted the most commonly owned DSLR brand, so that I would always be able to get help whenever I needed it. . Also, almost all of my photography buddies use Canon, so their lenses and accessories are compatible with mine. . We always switch and swap our gear when shooting together, and we help each other out when we need to go through the custom functions to change some obscure setting or something. . I couldn't do that if I had some other brand.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Feb 06, 2018 13:29 |  #165

i always thought Iphones were competing to be the best?

if they are the best i suppose is a matter of opinion .. but in any case i could swear they are considered to be the among the best if not THE best by many who line up days before each release..with lots of features and innovations.. for people who are into phones like that .

perhaps not the best comparison .. iphones to canon dslr's


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6D mark II...Did we make a mistake?
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