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FORUMS Sample Photo Archives Lens Sample Photo Archive 
Thread started 30 Mar 2015 (Monday) 22:20
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Sigma 150-600mm f/5-6.3 DG OS HSM Contemporary

 
SYS
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Feb 26, 2018 16:39 |  #3091

^^ Try test shooting at f/9 or narrower and then compare with the current results. Also, try using either a tripod or a monopod and then compare those, as well. My hunch is that it's user error rather than the lens.



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sidknee
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Feb 26, 2018 17:23 |  #3092

avdbrandt wrote in post #18572923 (external link)
All,
I need some help, after buying the canon 7Dmk2 last year I'm still not getting the quality I would like.
So i talked to a Sigma HQ in the Netherlands and they offered to do the MFA for me, so they had my lens and camera for a week and told me all should be within spec.
Last Saturday finally I had some good light and thus I took a lot of test shots, tried to find the balance between ss and ISO to keep the noise down.
I payed attention to my hand-holding technique and choose 1/500 as minimal ss, also 1/1000 I used a lot.
Found a robin (and some other smaller birds) and took a good amount of shots, picture you see was the best of all of those 100 shots @ 10 meters distance.
To me they looked ok in normal view but in 1:1 view they all looked terrible.
All setting are default in lightroom 6 so it cannot be a photo editor issue

So questions are:
1) I'm I expecting to much and is viewing in 1:1 mode overdone (how do you check for image sharpness?, 1:2 ?).
2) before I had a canon 6D, which was a little better IQ wise but I was never blown away, even more from what I see here.
3) Do i have a bad copy, so sell it and but a new 150-600 C?

Any thought are very welcome since I have no fund to buy another lens, this one is almost out of Sigma warranty, EF 100-400 MK 2 is costly and 200 mm shorter.

It even crossed my mind to sell all my canon gear and buy a Nikon D500 + 200-500 mm f5.6 lens, but will it improve my IQ? (so I'm quite desperate at this point :-) ).

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i32995311
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i106367220
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

A number of things could be the problem here. The first is good technique for the focal length. 600mm is long, especially so on a crop body. 1/1000s at a min. higher if you can force yourself to use that camera, don't be afraid of the higher ISOs.
Secondly, how have you set the focus system for these test shots? single shot or servo af? For testing purposes a fixed target can make things much easier to really evaluate, with a moving target you can never be quite sure you have got it right let alone the lens.
Third, looking at 7DII raw files in a developer with no sharpening added can be a little underwhelming sometimes, how do the jpgs look when you set the camera to a more raunchy style than standard?
Also, do try stopping down to f8. It's a good lens once you get used to the length.




  
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nqjudo
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Post edited 9 months ago by nqjudo.
     
Feb 26, 2018 19:28 |  #3093

avdbrandt wrote in post #18572923 (external link)
All,
I need some help, after buying the canon 7Dmk2 last year I'm still not getting the quality I would like.
So i talked to a Sigma HQ in the Netherlands and they offered to do the MFA for me, so they had my lens and camera for a week and told me all should be within spec.
Last Saturday finally I had some good light and thus I took a lot of test shots, tried to find the balance between ss and ISO to keep the noise down.
I payed attention to my hand-holding technique and choose 1/500 as minimal ss, also 1/1000 I used a lot.
Found a robin (and some other smaller birds) and took a good amount of shots, picture you see was the best of all of those 100 shots @ 10 meters distance.
To me they looked ok in normal view but in 1:1 view they all looked terrible.
All setting are default in lightroom 6 so it cannot be a photo editor issue

So questions are:
1) I'm I expecting to much and is viewing in 1:1 mode overdone (how do you check for image sharpness?, 1:2 ?).
2) before I had a canon 6D, which was a little better IQ wise but I was never blown away, even more from what I see here.
3) Do i have a bad copy, so sell it and but a new 150-600 C?

Any thought are very welcome since I have no fund to buy another lens, this one is almost out of Sigma warranty, EF 100-400 MK 2 is costly and 200 mm shorter.

It even crossed my mind to sell all my canon gear and buy a Nikon D500 + 200-500 mm f5.6 lens, but will it improve my IQ? (so I'm quite desperate at this point :-) ).

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i32995311
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i106367220
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

Everything looks kind of mushy. There's nowhere even to point to to say that you are front or back focusing. There shouldn't be an issue with your shutter speed. By all accounts the OS on the lens is 3-4 stops and there are plenty of hand held examples (many in this thread) that are tack sharp at 3-4 stops below 1/FL (accounting for the crop factor which, you are still in range)- wide open too. You can test it with much higher SS just for the exercise but it kind of negates the reason for having the OS. Did you test it on a tripod with the OS off? I got good results that way which is why I suspected a faulty OS system.

Agreed with the above post that 7D2 RAWs need some work but they shouldn't be that bad. FWIW I tested mine on the 7D2. 5D4 and 1DX2 and in all cases performance was unacceptable. I can hand hold the 100-400 + TC or a 600mm prime (for a short period ;) ) and get better results than I was getting on the Sigma 99%+ of the time but as I've said in previous posts there is enough evidence to say that the Sigma can produce excellent results. You've been active here for 15 years so I assume you've pressed a few shutter buttons in that time. When you pick up a lens and take a picture within the specifications for use while holding the unit reasonably steady every shot shouldn't turn out bad. There isn't that much voodoo involved. I think there is an issue with your lens.

You mentioned that you have been happy since you bought the 7D2. Were you using the lens on a different body previously? Were the results different?

I think you should approach Sigma again and ask them to evaluate the lens on your body with example photos. I've had service issues before where everything performs to spec on test equipment but yields different results in practice. I don't know about your neck of the woods but here Sigma warranty is 7 years. Keep us posted.


No photographer is as good as the simplest camera. - Edward Steichen.

  
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PINNACLE
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Feb 27, 2018 05:21 as a reply to  @ post 18572923 |  #3094

I agree with @sidknee #3092

Even the first photo looks out of focus let alone the 1:1. I would suggest a faster shutter speed to start, 1/500 at 600mm is a tall ask IMO especially on a small bird balancing in a tree with twigs and branches hanging all over the place, even a slight breeze or movement of the bird will give you a result like what you have taken even if the camera and lens are rock solid. I really always aim to match focal length as a rule. 600x1.6 (crop factor)=960 so 1/1000 but if light is available go higher. If good light makes you use 1/500 f6.3 and ISO800 I would hate to think what a normal day would be like. A sharp shot a higher ISO is easier to fix in pp than a blurred one at lower ISO. The 7Dii has some quirky AF features check them and use centre spot to focus not grouped and make sure you are not in One Shot.

Small birds at 10m are never going to be great in detail no matter what lens you use, you can try tripods or monopods but you can't beat getting up close. A few meal worms will get a Robin right up close even feeding out of your hand. I try to get within 3-5m for the small stuff just to get proper detail.

Try some static shots with the camera and lens supported so it is rock solid, a battery will do, go through the focal length to see how they compare, if you are still not happy there are a number or lens calibration charts available on the net free or you can buy one if you prefer. Try the lens out on one of them you can adjust your camera or if you have a dock adjust the lens. Even some of the best primes work best with a tweak. If Sigma have already tested your lens I doubt they would have sent it back not working but if after trying the above and you know it is the lens I am sure they will fix it.

I am on my second Sigma 150-600C after regretting selling my first when I got a 500mm prime and have never had a problem with either but when my sigma 120-300mmSport started making funny noises I was over the moon with Sigma service so at least you have that to fall back on.


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Canon 1DMKiv, Canon 7Dii, Canon G15, Tokina 12-24mm, 24-105mmL, 70-200mmf2.8iiL, Canon 300mmf4L, Sigma 150-600mmC, Canon 500f4L, 430EXii, 580EXii and a few other bits.

  
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evelakes
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Feb 27, 2018 05:58 |  #3095

avdbrandt wrote in post #18572923 (external link)
All,
I need some help, after buying the canon 7Dmk2 last year I'm still not getting the quality I would like.
So i talked to a Sigma HQ in the Netherlands and they offered to do the MFA for me, so they had my lens and camera for a week and told me all should be within spec.
Last Saturday finally I had some good light and thus I took a lot of test shots, tried to find the balance between ss and ISO to keep the noise down.
I payed attention to my hand-holding technique and choose 1/500 as minimal ss, also 1/1000 I used a lot.
Found a robin (and some other smaller birds) and took a good amount of shots, picture you see was the best of all of those 100 shots @ 10 meters distance.
To me they looked ok in normal view but in 1:1 view they all looked terrible.
All setting are default in lightroom 6 so it cannot be a photo editor issue

So questions are:
1) I'm I expecting to much and is viewing in 1:1 mode overdone (how do you check for image sharpness?, 1:2 ?).
2) before I had a canon 6D, which was a little better IQ wise but I was never blown away, even more from what I see here.
3) Do i have a bad copy, so sell it and but a new 150-600 C?

Any thought are very welcome since I have no fund to buy another lens, this one is almost out of Sigma warranty, EF 100-400 MK 2 is costly and 200 mm shorter.

It even crossed my mind to sell all my canon gear and buy a Nikon D500 + 200-500 mm f5.6 lens, but will it improve my IQ? (so I'm quite desperate at this point :-) ).

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i32995311
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by avdbrandt in
./showthread.php?p=185​72923&i=i106367220
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

I guess seeing the image you have to understand the light conditions you are given if the sun is burning so intens it will give you atmospheric problems wait until the daylight
is getting softer so you will see more details if you are able to set up a dummy in the field for testing at say 20/40/60 meters with a tripod and handhold and see the results .
I prefer not to shoot when the sun is to intens it always delivers me disappointing images due atmospheric problems.


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Feb 27, 2018 07:38 |  #3096

Small birds are hard to photograph. The camera will focus on their fat little bodies and leave their eyes fuzzy. Ruining the shot.

Took a quick look throug my test shots and found a good example.

This is an uncropped image followed by a tight crop. Notice where the plane of focus is. The camera picked the wing and tail to focus on. Don't know if the exif will carry over but 600mm @f6.3, iso 800 1/640th handheld. I learned after this to open up a stop and kick the ISO up a bit. My 1d3 doesn't do well at higher ISO but the newer ones should be able to kick it up more with no issues.


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Feb 27, 2018 12:58 |  #3097

Firmware update on the way for aberration corrections on many Sig lenses

https://www.the-digital-picture.com …News-Post.aspx?News=24385 (external link)


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:04 |  #3098

SYS wrote in post #18572953 (external link)
^^ Try test shooting at f/9 or narrower and then compare with the current results. Also, try using either a tripod or a monopod and then compare those, as well. My hunch is that it's user error rather than the lens.

I will test these coming weekend, thx for your help


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:11 |  #3099

sidknee wrote in post #18572992 (external link)
A number of things could be the problem here. The first is good technique for the focal length. 600mm is long, especially so on a crop body. 1/1000s at a min. higher if you can force yourself to use that camera, don't be afraid of the higher ISOs.
Secondly, how have you set the focus system for these test shots? single shot or servo af? For testing purposes a fixed target can make things much easier to really evaluate, with a moving target you can never be quite sure you have got it right let alone the lens.
Third, looking at 7DII raw files in a developer with no sharpening added can be a little underwhelming sometimes, how do the jpgs look when you set the camera to a more raunchy style than standard?
Also, do try stopping down to f8. It's a good lens once you get used to the length.

Thank you for these suggestions, will try this weekend, more much ss, and ISO much higher and f8 and shoor RAW+JPEG (still i feel the 7Dmk2 is noisy sometimes, but sometimes i'm surprised so i will not underexpose to make sure).
I use Servo case 1 with middle point focus, so for me the easiest way, i check in DPP if the focus point did hit the bird, mostly that is not an issue at all), also i shoot with short burst series,
Add lightroom sharpening before review, check.


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:28 |  #3100

nqjudo wrote in post #18573095 (external link)
Everything looks kind of mushy. There's nowhere even to point to to say that you are front or back focusing. There shouldn't be an issue with your shutter speed. By all accounts the OS on the lens is 3-4 stops and there are plenty of hand held examples (many in this thread) that are tack sharp at 3-4 stops below 1/FL (accounting for the crop factor which, you are still in range)- wide open too. You can test it with much higher SS just for the exercise but it kind of negates the reason for having the OS. Did you test it on a tripod with the OS off? I got good results that way which is why I suspected a faulty OS system.

Agreed with the above post that 7D2 RAWs need some work but they shouldn't be that bad. FWIW I tested mine on the 7D2. 5D4 and 1DX2 and in all cases performance was unacceptable. I can hand hold the 100-400 + TC or a 600mm prime (for a short period ;) ) and get better results than I was getting on the Sigma 99%+ of the time but as I've said in previous posts there is enough evidence to say that the Sigma can produce excellent results. You've been active here for 15 years so I assume you've pressed a few shutter buttons in that time. When you pick up a lens and take a picture within the specifications for use while holding the unit reasonably steady every shot shouldn't turn out bad. There isn't that much voodoo involved. I think there is an issue with your lens.

You mentioned that you have been happy since you bought the 7D2. Were you using the lens on a different body previously? Were the results different?

I think you should approach Sigma again and ask them to evaluate the lens on your body with example photos. I've had service issues before where everything performs to spec on test equipment but yields different results in practice. I don't know about your neck of the woods but here Sigma warranty is 7 years. Keep us posted.

Thank you for your input, mushy is a good description, I have no idea how that happens,I see a lot of clear shots on this forum but with most my shots it loks like this and it is difficult to see where the sharp focus field is, i will test with tripod and OS turned off.
My thinking was to use indeed 1/500 as much other people here can shoot with much lower ss.

I bought the 7Dmk2 for even more reach although a regret this at this point since the 6D was pretty good, so maybe the extra reach is givig me these issues at this point,
From age of 10 I did own my own camera so I should know how it works :lol:, but 600mm on crop sensor is new to me, to be honest, so i recon an extra steep learning curve.

I can hear the OS mechanism when AF is engaged, so i this that OS should work fine, but the tripod test will rule out a possible OS issue.


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Green ­ Man
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Feb 27, 2018 13:40 |  #3101

avdbrandt wrote in post #18573724 (external link)
Thank you for these suggestions, will try this weekend, more much ss, and ISO much higher and f8 and shoor RAW+JPEG (still i feel the 7Dmk2 is noisy sometimes, but sometimes i'm surprised so i will not underexpose to make sure).
I use Servo case 1 with middle point focus, so for me the easiest way, i check in DPP if the focus point did hit the bird, mostly that is not an issue at all), also i shoot with short burst series,
Add lightroom sharpening before review, check.

Are you using ai servo or one shot? I find that using the ai servo for static targets yields horrible results.


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:40 |  #3102

PINNACLE wrote in post #18573429 (external link)
I agree with @sidknee #3092

Even the first photo looks out of focus let alone the 1:1. I would suggest a faster shutter speed to start, 1/500 at 600mm is a tall ask IMO especially on a small bird balancing in a tree with twigs and branches hanging all over the place, even a slight breeze or movement of the bird will give you a result like what you have taken even if the camera and lens are rock solid. I really always aim to match focal length as a rule. 600x1.6 (crop factor)=960 so 1/1000 but if light is available go higher. If good light makes you use 1/500 f6.3 and ISO800 I would hate to think what a normal day would be like. A sharp shot a higher ISO is easier to fix in pp than a blurred one at lower ISO. The 7Dii has some quirky AF features check them and use centre spot to focus not grouped and make sure you are not in One Shot.

Small birds at 10m are never going to be great in detail no matter what lens you use, you can try tripods or monopods but you can't beat getting up close. A few meal worms will get a Robin right up close even feeding out of your hand. I try to get within 3-5m for the small stuff just to get proper detail.

Try some static shots with the camera and lens supported so it is rock solid, a battery will do, go through the focal length to see how they compare, if you are still not happy there are a number or lens calibration charts available on the net free or you can buy one if you prefer. Try the lens out on one of them you can adjust your camera or if you have a dock adjust the lens. Even some of the best primes work best with a tweak. If Sigma have already tested your lens I doubt they would have sent it back not working but if after trying the above and you know it is the lens I am sure they will fix it.

I am on my second Sigma 150-600C after regretting selling my first when I got a 500mm prime and have never had a problem with either but when my sigma 120-300mmSport started making funny noises I was over the moon with Sigma service so at least you have that to fall back on.


All good points, thanks for sharing these with me, for AF setting i use centre spot, AI servo and standard case 1 for AF, i even default all settings not long ago.
This weekend I will have time and bring a toy bird or something to test :-), it was sunny last Saturday here in The Netherlands but the still this exposure was all i got to have it correct, now you mention it looks not all that sunny when you look at the exposure :-P, i see exposures here that I do not understand how to have these over here at my location, hopefully spring will come soon to have more light.
Will first do more testing before contact Sigma for a repair request, because maybe the issue is with me.


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:49 |  #3103

evelakes wrote in post #18573436 (external link)
I guess seeing the image you have to understand the light conditions you are given if the sun is burning so intens it will give you atmospheric problems wait until the daylight
is getting softer so you will see more details if you are able to set up a dummy in the field for testing at say 20/40/60 meters with a tripod and handhold and see the results .
I prefer not to shoot when the sun is to intens it always delivers me disappointing images due atmospheric problems.

Thank you for your help, it was freezing over here so i did not think that this could lead to these issues with atmospheric influences, good point to seek more for time in the morning or later in the afternoon.
This lens never ever (with 6D or 7Dmk2) got me useable shots over longer range, so i stick below 20 meters for now, that is why is asked Sigma to help with MFA, but with no improvement.
I never heard of a lens issue only happening for longer range, so i expect that will be no issue at this moment.
Still have warranty till April so when all is tested maybe I can request a repair from Sigma.


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:55 |  #3104

bigVinnie wrote in post #18573490 (external link)
Small birds are hard to photograph. The camera will focus on their fat little bodies and leave their eyes fuzzy. Ruining the shot.

Took a quick look throug my test shots and found a good example.

This is an uncropped image followed by a tight crop. Notice where the plane of focus is. The camera picked the wing and tail to focus on. Don't know if the exif will carry over but 600mm @f6.3, iso 800 1/640th handheld. I learned after this to open up a stop and kick the ISO up a bit. My 1d3 doesn't do well at higher ISO but the newer ones should be able to kick it up more with no issues.

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by bigVinnie in
./showthread.php?p=185​73490&i=i44126305
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by bigVinnie in
./showthread.php?p=185​73490&i=i166674903
forum: Lens Sample Photo Archive

Still these shots a looking way better than my best ones, but I get your point, the grass is seen clearly in your pictures, in mine they look all "mushy", but i keep on testing, still hope that I'm the problem and not my equipment :lol:
Last resort could be to order one and test, than keep it and sell my current lens, but that feels not OK to me.
Thanks for you help it is much appreciated.


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avdbrandt
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Feb 27, 2018 13:59 |  #3105

Green Man wrote in post #18573747 (external link)
Are you using ai servo or one shot? I find that using the ai servo for static targets yields horrible results.

AI servo for moving subjects and center point, are you saying that one shots might work?, the birds to not sit still at all?


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