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Thread started 26 Feb 2018 (Monday) 02:57
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Why have they released the 4000D?

 
mcoren
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Feb 27, 2018 19:49 |  #31

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18573909 (external link)
If that is the mindset where they prey on the ignorant with such a terrible outdated product saying how new it is to entice buyers, then my view of Canon just went out the window.

I appreciate having different price models with different features, but this is now the 2nd time, and a most egregious example, where Canon took old tech (in this case, it might as well be the T2i) and relabeled as a newly released new camera 8 years later, just to confuse the consumer to build revenue. That is the signal of a company that has nothing in the pipeline in regards to improvements or new concepts.

People know with cars, that they are trading various features for less money, that is very common, the window sticker makes that clear, as does the salesman with the hope they can upsell you. That is not the scenario here.

It would be like a car manufacturer creating a new model or successor to a prior model, but pulling the engine out of a car 9 years ago, along with the CD player radio, drum brakes, and poor gas mileage and calling it a new model with a great sale price, without divulging the age and lack of quality as compared to current cameras to the consumer in a clear concise manner. Nobody knows what the digic 4 processor is, nor will understand that the 18-55 III is the lens they are getting and that it is inferior to the 18-55 STM IS lens that their friend might have from their rebel purchase. They will see that Canon came out with a new DSLR at a low price, and believe it to be a great deal due to what they hear from others about their Rebels, and 80Ds, etc.

In some industries, if this happened to this degree, it might actually be considered fraud.

Your arguments are tenuous at best. What's fraudulent? They're not saying that this is the latest and greatest technology that Canon has ever put into a camera. If they were trying to pass off used or reconditioned T2i's/550D's as new, that would be fraudulent. But they're not. These are brand new cameras right off the production line that just happen to leverage mature technology to reduce costs. Companies do that all the time. The specs I recall right now are that it takes EF lenses, it has an 18MP sensor, a DIGIC 4+ processor (whatever that means), it can shoot at 3 fps, and it comes with a lens whose focal length can vary between 18 and 55 mm. As long as all of those statements are true, where's the fraud?

Mike


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TeamSpeed
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Post edited 3 months ago by TeamSpeed. (6 edits in all)
     
Feb 27, 2018 20:07 as a reply to  @ mcoren's post |  #32

It borders on fraud as this new release has nothing taken from the last decade in their newest product, which is something they haven't done before, and their reputation, to this point, has been mostly based on their producing products that offer new and improved technology. When a company has developed a reputation as Canon has with their rebels year after year, with the improvements each time, then release another one with all the hardware and specs from 8 years prior, hoping to find new DSLR owners that don't know better (er, I mean they are coming from a smartphone and want to get into DSLRs), that seems just wrong to me.

1) Canon has long since moved away from the crappy kit lens from years prior. The 18-55 III is actually a bit rare to find new any longer. The IS and STM versions are much better. Here though, Canon is throwing in what was considered one of the worst Canon lenses, next to the 75-300, again, after years of offering the better IS STM versions. This is preying on the ignorance and confusion around the 18-55 lens moniker so that they can eek out profits on a rather crappy lens on todays standards, especially on such a dense APS-C.

2) The 18Mpx sensor is dated from 2009. So I will bend a bit here, however hardly any camera has been introduced with that sensor in the last few years. The last was the 1300D 2 years ago, and Canon presumably said goodbye to that sensor based on articles back then. Here we are again, bringing that sensor back on a newly introduced camera.

3) The Digic4 processor produced substandard JPGs, The JPG engine and NR were improved after this. What I don't know for certain is whether the Digic4+ was when the engine was updated to produce much better JPGs or not, that needs further investigation.

4) The screen is a low resolution screen that also harkens back to the 2009/2010 era. Again reputation and releases from Canon have shown better and better LCDs, better sensors, etc, and then blam, they throw this T2i throwback out there.

I can go on with all the specs because I am very versed on the 18Mpx sensor release and the bodies since 2009. This is perhaps a T2i rebranded, at best. At worst, it is a play on consumer ignorance where up to this point, Canon hasn't pulled such a trick that I am aware of.

If I owned a company (and I do), if somebody in marketing took my brand's recognition and reputation for bringing forward valued products, priced at different points with different features, and a marketing person said, "hey we can make some quick sales by reverting back to old technology from almost a decade ago, and people that don't know any better and want to get into DSLRs, they will know the Canon brand, and will buy these up because they will think it's a bargain", that person most likely would have to find another job. If that is the best the marketing department can come up with, that isn't good for the longevity of the company, and I would revamp the marketing department.

The ONLY redeeming point that can be made here is that the price is that of a used 7D or T2i, but with a one year warranty. That is the absolute only positive in this release. I understand, some are Canon apologetics, and I own all things Canon, but I find this quite disturbing and borderline deplorable. Others of you are just going to look at the financials of this, but you cannot ignore the reputation and progress (slow as it is) on their offerings year after year, creating a level of expectation, then they throw this out hoping to rope in some new DSLR owners.

I am sure the internet will be full of warnings though, and those consumers that do their homework will be able to see the forest through the trees. This also won't be the best decision Canon has made in the last few years unfortunately. They will make their $200 profit from each camera, but what is the long term impact of this? Will consumers buy other Canon gear, or be disappointed in the lack of detail in their images, high ISO noise that many got upset with when the 7D was introduced, and a lens that isn't stabilized? Will they just move to Nikon, Sony, Fuji, etc? Time will tell.


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mcoren
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Feb 27, 2018 20:31 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #33

All of these points may be true, and Canon may very well be playing it overly safe and taking advantage of their customers. But I still don't see any evidence of fraud.

I've been a PON member for nearly three years now, TeamSpeed, and in that time I've read many of your posts on various topics. I might not have agreed with them all, but I will say that they are typically well informed and well thought out, which is why I'm having trouble understanding the source of your vitriol for this entry level camera, which I presume somebody of your experience would never consider purchasing anyway.

Based on your earlier posts in this thread, I'm going to speculate that the real issue is lingering disappointment over the 6D Mark II, and you're lashing out at this camera vicariously. I followed the 6Dii thread before it shipped, and my impression was that many of the people who were bashing it at that time were doing so because they wanted it to be a 5D Mark IV at a 6D price, and it wasn't. Until that happens, nothing Canon does can be any good to these people.

I'm done with this thread. Moving on.

Mike


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Feb 28, 2018 05:09 as a reply to  @ TeamSpeed's post |  #34

To sum up:

"Canon ? Yeah, I had one of those. A 4000D, I think. It was utter crap. Got rid of it and bought a Nikon something-or-other. Never going back to Canon."


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Mar 01, 2018 00:26 |  #35

When a camera manufacturer releases a new model, there is nothing at all that implies that the new model uses new technology. . It's just a new model, not new tech.

Why would anyone think that a new model would have new technology, unless the manufacturer specifically says so?

If someone just assumes that because the model is new, then the tech within it is also new, well, then shame on them for just making assumptions. . Especially so if the new model is lower priced than any of the other models in the entire lineup. . Who would see the very cheapest camera on that shelf and think that it had new tech inside of it?

I mean, if Apple came out with a new iPhone model that was cheaper than any of the other current iPhones, I would never think that it would have new technology inside of it. . Rather, I would just think that they decided to make a "bargain model" to gain a portion of the market that they hadn't been targeting before, and that the tech inside of it would either be very down-specked or a couple of generations old, or both.


.


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quickben
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Post edited 3 months ago by quickben.
     
Mar 01, 2018 06:43 |  #36

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18574906 (external link)
When a camera manufacturer releases a new model, there is nothing at all that implies that the new model uses new technology. . It's just a new model, not new tech.

Why would anyone think that a new model would have new technology, unless the manufacturer specifically says so?

If someone just assumes that because the model is new, then the tech within it is also new, well, then shame on them for just making assumptions. . Especially so if the new model is lower priced than any of the other models in the entire lineup. . Who would see the very cheapest camera on that shelf and think that it had new tech inside of it?

I mean, if Apple came out with a new iPhone model that was cheaper than any of the other current iPhones, I would never think that it would have new technology inside of it. . Rather, I would just think that they decided to make a "bargain model" to gain a portion of the market that they hadn't been targeting before, and that the tech inside of it would either be very down-specked or a couple of generations old, or both.


.

This is nonsense.

Of course someone could rightly assume that there would be new technology inside a new model. Obviously not the entire camera, especially at this price point, but there should be a reason to buy it over a used one generation old model, or (since the price difference is so small) the next model up that at least has a contemporary sensor.

As has been mentioned, the 4000D is basically a 550D with wifi, in a rock-bottom spec housing.

230k resolution screen and a PLASTIC lens mount ?!!

When the price for these things drop (and lets be honest, it's going to plummet) Canon will atleast have the accolade of selling the first disposable dSLR.


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russbecker
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Mar 01, 2018 14:53 |  #37

The 6D2 was/is basically a parts bin camera. 80D body with a FF sensor using old fab that was sitting on the shelf (the 6D was basically a 40D with a FF sensor). An exercise in maximizing your ROI. The problem is that $2000 isn't hay, and is a pretty high price point... especially if someone is one of those that is just buying a DSLR to take 'good pictures'.

The 4000D is looking like another parts bin camera, 550D with a newer sensor.

Is the 6D2 (or 4000D) taken by itself, in a vacuum, a good camera? Sure, but so was my Fujica ST801 42 years ago (it had silicon diodes in single f-stop increments rather than the usual match-needle metering). But none of these cameras is ever evaluated by itself, but rather in comparison to contemporary cameras at that price point.

It is starting to look ominous with Canon; is using the parts bin the method of creating cameras going forward? I sure hope not, it doesn't seem to be the method chosen by either Nikon or Sony.


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Choderboy
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Mar 02, 2018 04:49 |  #38

I just Googled 'Canon 4000D'.

It is not even necessary to click any link.
On the first page I see this:

Canon's tepid 4000D isn't released in this country yet, but the fact that it even exists is a sad commentary on where camera manufacturers are today

The EOS 4000D is Canon's latest stripped-back entry-level DSLR – and it really is all about the bottom line.


Quite a few links have 'Canon' in the URL so I'm ignoring those.
Anyone who does the most basic of research will discover a lot of negative opinions on this camera. Phrases like 'old tech' and 'parts bin' will be used.
I think anyone who buys a 4000D just needs to try harder at not wasting money.


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Dragos ­ Jianu
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Mar 04, 2018 02:20 |  #39

With such a rich offering of second hand bodies at reasonable prices, I'd be hard pressed to pick the 4000D over a well-loved 5D, 40D or 50D.


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Mar 04, 2018 17:17 |  #40

I'm amazed by most of the comments in this thread. When a new camera release is clearly not aimed in your direction, why complain that it misses you? Nobody, anywhere ever dreamed you might be the target market.

$400 is not 'cheap' ... or even 'affordable' ... but a real stretch for the great majority of people on this planet and well beyond the reach of most. But a very capable (if far from state of the art) ILC will be hugely appealing to a whole lot of people of modest means who are thinking about giving 'real' photography a go. It will be incredibly attractive, for example, to any school or college running a photography course, and something they can happily recommend to students. Sure, you can get better for less in the second hand market ... but you have to take a risk and you can't just go down to Walmart and get one of those 'better' alternatives today.

And there is absolutely nothing about good photographic art and craft that you will not be able to learn and to demonstrate with the 4000D.

I think this camera will likely sell ... in quantity. Most people who buy it will probably never move on. But some will develop a real love for photography using it, together with some good skills and understanding. And being as they will not be stupid and will know full well that they started with the most entry-level of entry-level ILCs, these people will expect to have to spend more to buy cameras and lenses of greater quality/capability. And, since the world works the way it does, Canon can be confident that a high proportion of such purchases will be made within its system.

I can perfectly understand why Canon has released the 4000D and I welcome it.


David.
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Mike ­ Deep
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Mar 05, 2018 00:09 |  #41

Again, this camera exists to crowd out display counters. As a parts bin camera, it doesn't even have to move numbers.


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