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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 20 Oct 2017 (Friday) 10:00
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So if we are done with LR, whats our choices?

 
Mathmans
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Post edited 3 months ago by Mathmans.
     
Mar 07, 2018 07:38 as a reply to  @ post 18579061 |  #361

Mark and Kirk;

Thank you both for your answer.
Let me first say I'm far from beginner regarding post processing. I don't use only one software because I've discovered that one software can't cover all I wan't to do. Some software does one thing better then other. So at this moment I'm using DxO Photolab, Lightroom, Capture One Pro and Photoshop.
I'm using DxO software from DxO Optics Pro version 9 Elite and I gradualy advanced to Dxo Optics Pro version 11 Elite and now I'm using latest version of DxO Photolab Elite. I'm also using Capture One Pro from version 8 and now I'm on version 11.

Kirk, I agree with you. Dxo is not as good at recovery as LR and Capture One. Not to mention highlights reconstruction. I have also explained in post #255 some of other thing I don't like in Dxo.

Mark;
funny thing is; yestarday I was searching for the same site you've attached in you post. I couldn't find it. I wanted to attach it to my post as an example what Dxo can't do good.
Those first two examples (the cave and the lighthouse) are a perfect examples of weird, unnatural looking half HDR images I wouldn't want in my collection.
That sort of images are not the best examples to show Dxo potentials. Dxo can't recover/reconstruct such photos. That's why I also have LR or C1 Pro.

Somehow I thought I'm lacking knowledge or missing some techniques.
But if Dxo developers on their own site can't do a better job at pushing shadows and recovering/reconstruct​ing highlights, I can draw a conclusion that DxO Optics or Photolab can only go so far at the moment.
I can stop looking for answers and just wait they'll sort things out in the future.




  
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patrick ­ j
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Mar 07, 2018 11:13 |  #362

I haven't read every post here, don't know if On 1 Photo Raw has been discussed much, but Anthony Morganti has a video out on it, looks like a decent alternative.

https://www.youtube.co​m/watch?v=pNskmrZ9G10 (external link)


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kirkt
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Mar 07, 2018 12:53 |  #363

Mathmans wrote in post #18579584 (external link)
Mark and Kirk;

Thank you both for your answer.
Let me first say I'm far from beginner regarding post processing. I don't use only one software because I've discovered that one software can't cover all I wan't to do. Some software does one thing better then other. So at this moment I'm using DxO Photolab, Lightroom, Capture One Pro and Photoshop.
I'm using DxO software from DxO Optics Pro version 9 Elite and I gradualy advanced to Dxo Optics Pro version 11 Elite and now I'm using latest version of DxO Photolab Elite. I'm also using Capture One Pro from version 8 and now I'm on version 11.

Kirk, I agree with you. Dxo is not as good at recovery as LR and Capture One. Not to mention highlights reconstruction. I have also explained in post #255 some of other thing I don't like in Dxo.

Mark;
funny thing is; yestarday I was searching for the same site you've attached in you post. I couldn't find it. I wanted to attach it to my post as an example what Dxo can't do good.
Those first two examples (the cave and the lighthouse) are a perfect examples of weird, unnatural looking half HDR images I wouldn't want in my collection.
That sort of images are not the best examples to show Dxo potentials. Dxo can't recover/reconstruct such photos. That's why I also have LR or C1 Pro.

Somehow I thought I'm lacking knowledge or missing some techniques.
But if Dxo developers on their own site can't do a better job at pushing shadows and recovering/reconstruct​ing highlights, I can draw a conclusion that DxO Optics or Photolab can only go so far at the moment.
I can stop looking for answers and just wait they'll sort things out in the future.

To make a fair comparison, it is important to know what raw file data you are trying to manipulate - are there actual highlights that exist in the file but you are trying to bring down (i.e., proper ETTR) or are the highlights partially blown and you are trying to reconstruct them?

I am also experienced in using a bunch of different software but I always am learning new things. So, do you use all of the features in PhotoLab that I mentioned or not?

kirk


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mwsilver
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Post edited 3 months ago by mwsilver.
     
Mar 07, 2018 19:32 |  #364

Mathmans wrote in post #18579584 (external link)
Mark and Kirk;

Thank you both for your answer.
Let me first say I'm far from beginner regarding post processing. I don't use only one software because I've discovered that one software can't cover all I wan't to do. Some software does one thing better then other. So at this moment I'm using DxO Photolab, Lightroom, Capture One Pro and Photoshop.
I'm using DxO software from DxO Optics Pro version 9 Elite and I gradualy advanced to Dxo Optics Pro version 11 Elite and now I'm using latest version of DxO Photolab Elite. I'm also using Capture One Pro from version 8 and now I'm on version 11.

Kirk, I agree with you. Dxo is not as good at recovery as LR and Capture One. Not to mention highlights reconstruction. I have also explained in post #255 some of other thing I don't like in Dxo.

Mark;
funny thing is; yestarday I was searching for the same site you've attached in you post. I couldn't find it. I wanted to attach it to my post as an example what Dxo can't do good.
Those first two examples (the cave and the lighthouse) are a perfect examples of weird, unnatural looking half HDR images I wouldn't want in my collection.
That sort of images are not the best examples to show Dxo potentials. Dxo can't recover/reconstruct such photos. That's why I also have LR or C1 Pro.

Somehow I thought I'm lacking knowledge or missing some techniques.
But if Dxo developers on their own site can't do a better job at pushing shadows and recovering/reconstruct​ing highlights, I can draw a conclusion that DxO Optics or Photolab can only go so far at the moment.
I can stop looking for answers and just wait they'll sort things out in the future.

Keep in mind that the link I posted was to Optics Pro 10. That's two versions back. I know they've made a number of improvements to existing tools since then so I don't know whether those examples would be handled better in the current version. I also own Lightroom 6, and I have been trying out the full trial version of Capture One Pro 11 for the last several days. Its frustrating because each software package has its pluses and minuses. If only we could meld the best of all three together into a single package. Now that would be something!


Mark
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Mathmans
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Mar 08, 2018 02:58 as a reply to  @ mwsilver's post |  #365

Well; don't get me wrong. I'm still using Dxo as my No1 RAW developing software.
Let's talk first about normal images with normal dynamic range and such colors that don't need color correction. For such images I use Dxo. LR can also handle them perfectly but I'm trying to avoid it because I hate this import and catalog thing.
I've created my own ''No correction'' profile in Dxo – everything off except Lens sharpness. I've also made my tool profile – I've rearanged tools so they follow my logic.
So; when I open an image everything is turned off except lens sharpness. Then I gradually follow the settings from white balance, exposure, smart lighting, ….etc till the image looks like I wan't.
Yes; I am fully aware what each tool can do and what can not do. Smart lighting – some times I use it and other times it makes image worse. And yes; I use Uniform and Spot smart lighting. I also know that you can draw more spot smart lighting rectangles on the image and that the size of rectangles aslo has effect.

First thing I don't like in Dxo is how sliders behave.
Do you know something about amplifiers? Do you listen to music? Amplifiers have logarythmic potentiometers for volume adjustment and not linear potentiometers. Why? Because with logarythmic potentiometers you can adjust volume better. With linear potentiometer you would turn the knob for a small angle and the music would be too loud.
Sliders in Dxo behave exactly as linear potentiometer. You just touch them and it's too much. Just try it– open the same image in LR and in Dxo and try to adjust for example blacks or white balance. In LR the slider goes smooth as silk just like logarythmic potentiometer and in Dxo a small movement makes too much effect on the image. They've improved them from version 9 but they are still far from LR sliders. Lots of time I must use those small arrows to move sliders click by click and I hate that.
On the other hand sliders on local adjustment tool (in Dxo Photolab) are very good. You can also move the mouse away from the slider for even slower adjustment. Just perfect.
I can't understand why they can't sort all other sliders in the same manner.

The second thing I don't like is how Local adjustment sliders interfear with each other. They improved them but they are far from LR sliders.
Just try it - open the same image in LR and in Dxo and just move highlights slider to left (not far to the left) then examine both images.

The third thing I don't like is HSL tool. Nothing comes close to LR in HSL tool.

Forth thing…
Did you ever use defringe tool in LR? Works like a small wonder.
Ever tried to remove green and purple fringe in Dxo? Don't tell me it's automatic because it's not or it doesn't work.

I won't write about all the things they could improve. I suppose I could mention one more thing. They sure could made more tutorials and videos. For Gods sake; if they want to play with big boys they should find a few pro photographers to give us some videos of real world examples about Dxo workflow and what could be done with Dxo. And I'm not talking about the fellow on Youtube adjusting mediocre snapshots by playing with sliders.

If I draw a line there are much more things about Dxo I like then the things I don't like so I'm using it at the moment.
But there is no perfect tool – a one tool for all jobs, so I use all this software I have. I mainly use Dxo, Lightroom and photoshop with plugins. I don't use Capture One much. The main reason is that it renders colors and tones the way I don't like very much.

I haven't touched how Dxo handles images with more demanding dynamic range and more demanding colors.
Let's just say that such images are not Dxo's strongest point. They improved things from Dxo Optics 9 but not by much.
If we look at those cave and lighthouse examples from the link (post #359) – a very good example what do you get when things get tough. You get a weird looking image with some kind of orange tint. This goes for Dxo Optics Pro and it also goes for last version of Dxo Photolab I'm using now.
Perhaps there is something with my eyes or my monitor and you find those images acceptable. For me those images are far from acceptable. I don't know if they've blown highlights beyond repair but most of my images with more dynamic range (blown or not) looks just like that when I try to recover them. That's why I still have Lightroom.
I get this orange tint every time I push shadows or I try to put down some highlights. LR can handle the same images without a smallest problem. I'm not talking about specific image I have in my collection. I bet you have some images with demanding dynamic range in your collection. Try to push them with Dxo and LR and you will see what I mean. Of course you can wrestle and play with settings in Dxo to sort this orange look and flatness to some degree but this is just additional work. Why would I if in LR all I need are 4 sliders and the image is recovered.

I write this for two reasons.
If someone would like to ditch LR and get new software, I think at the moment Dxo can't fully replace LR. Well, it can if you only do a few basic adjustments. But if you do serious post processing then Dxo is not the way to go. Tell me; how many famous photographers use Dxo at the moment?
You can find a few pro photographers on the net using Dxo but….
The second reason is that I like Dxo and I hope someone at Dxo is reading this and I also hope they have some capable programmers and more impotrant I hope they have a will and interest to listen to the users and change thingh to better.

On the other hand I hear On1 is getting better and better and it's the closest match to LR logic of all software out there. If they are smart and if they want to get in the game they will listen to users and improve things.
I'm nagging about Dxo issues for a long time so some day those issues might overveight the good things so who knows…. if On1 inproves to my leaking I might just wipe Dxo from my SSD and go for On1 or use Dxo only for noise reduction and doall the other work with other software.




  
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kirkt
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Post edited 3 months ago by kirkt.
     
Mar 08, 2018 08:30 |  #366

Mathmans wrote in post #18580157 (external link)
...

I won't write about all the things they could improve. I suppose I could mention one more thing. They sure could made more tutorials and videos. For Gods sake; if they want to play with big boys they should find a few pro photographers to give us some videos of real world examples about Dxo workflow and what could be done with Dxo. And I'm not talking about the fellow on Youtube adjusting mediocre snapshots by playing with sliders.

...

But all of your criticisms are exactly why you should compose them in a pointed email or forum post to DxO. I will disclose openly that I have beta tested for DxO since v8. The content of your post is precisely the kind of thing that developers want to know. The developers listen to feedback and work on improving their product, and user feedback plays a huge role in making the product better. Comparing the action of the sliders to that or the LR sliders may be an elusive change, simply because the sliders in both products do not perform the same task, but if finer control over the sliders' result is what you are after, then let the developers know. I have not found the sliders to be a problem, but that does not mean anything in the context of your experience!

I also agree about the need for in-depth video tutorial presence. Right now, there are a few, not very detailed videos. Part of the issue may be language and delivering the video content in a format that can reach a wide, multi-lingual audience (DxO's user base). Hopefully with their push to re-release and develop the Nik suite they will get on the task of providing video content for existing and new users that not only re-introduces the Nik suite, but demonstrates how it can be tied into the DxO workflow. Hopefully they can integrate the suite in a way that is not as cumbersome and slow as the OnOne approach to a do-everything image processing environment. You should use a trial of the OnOne product to see if it is right for you - I have been trying it since OnOne 10 (I purchased PhotoRaw 2017, but abandoned it after finding it was slow, bulky and the image quality was terrible - when they made me purchase 2018 to upgrade from 2017, I abandoned the application - you're welcome for beta testing your crap software!).

Seriously though, you obviously have a very clear understanding of how PhotoLab fits into a photography workflow for you and the devs could benefit from your feedback. You can join the DxO forum if you have not already and let them know what you think. I do not spend a lot of time on the public forums, so I apologize in advance if you have voiced your concerns there already.

I use CaptureOne 11 as well as DxO PhotoLab. They both have a place in what I do. I also use Iridient Developer and Raw Photo Processor (Mac only). If I need to use the Adobe raw engine, I use it in ACR. I avoid LR for many reasons.

kirk


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cwwallis
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Mar 08, 2018 08:37 |  #367

I find it hard with software not only the different file types but the different types of work. I find I change software when I shoot weddings but have a different flow with my commercial jobs. LR is great for larger jobs like a wedding but need a little bit more functions with a commercial job. I added Photo Mechanic in to compensate for slowness of LR.


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mwsilver
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Post edited 3 months ago by mwsilver.
     
Mar 08, 2018 10:16 |  #368

kirkt wrote in post #18580268 (external link)
But all of your criticisms are exactly why you should compose them in a pointed email or forum post to DxO. I will disclose openly that I have beta tested for DxO since v8. The content of your post is precisely the kind of thing that developers want to know. The developers listen to feedback and work on improving their product, and user feedback plays a huge role in making the product better. Comparing the action of the sliders to that or the LR sliders may be an elusive change, simply because the sliders in both products do not perform the same task, but if finer control over the sliders' result is what you are after, then let the developers know. I have not found the sliders to be a problem, but that does not mean anything in the context of your experience!

I also agree about the need for in-depth video tutorial presence. Right now, there are a few, not very detailed videos. Part of the issue may be language and delivering the video content in a format that can reach a wide, multi-lingual audience (DxO's user base). Hopefully with their push to re-release and develop the Nik suite they will get on the task of providing video content for existing and new users that not only re-introduces the Nik suite, but demonstrates how it can be tied into the DxO workflow. Hopefully they can integrate the suite in a way that is not as cumbersome and slow as the OnOne approach to a do-everything image processing environment. You should use a trial of the OnOne product to see if it is right for you - I have been trying it since OnOne 10 (I purchased PhotoRaw 2017, but abandoned it after finding it was slow, bulky and the image quality was terrible - when they made me purchase 2018 to upgrade from 2017, I abandoned the application - you're welcome for beta testing your crap software!).

Seriously though, you obviously have a very clear understanding of how PhotoLab fits into a photography workflow for you and the devs could benefit from your feedback. You can join the DxO forum if you have not already and let them know what you think. I do not spend a lot of time on the public forums, so I apologize in advance if you have voiced your concerns there already.

I use CaptureOne 11 as well as DxO PhotoLab. They both have a place in what I do. I also use Iridient Developer and Raw Photo Processor (Mac only). If I need to use the Adobe raw engine, I use it in ACR. I avoid LR for many reasons.

kirk

I downloaded On1 out of curiosity earlier today and have already uninstalled it. In their videos they make it look like a do everything all in one app, and the price is certainly right. But I find the interface cumbersome and non-intuitive, and I don't care for many of the tools and controls, and the way they're implemented. Their transform perspective tool works strictly by eye and there is no option to constrain the crop after transform. You have to carefully manually crop images after using this perspective tool. Many others have complained of this. Overall, after struggling to fix a standard image that I've been using to test these packages, I decided after half hour that On1 may have a lot of potential, but currently it's not ready for primetime. Too bad.

I really like Capture One Pro 11 in many respects, but one of the weirdest things that they left out is an easy way to view the original image before adjustments were made. I thought it must be me when I couldn't find a button to do that and after extensive research it turns out it doesn't exist. There's ways to do it using variants, but it's cumbersome and takes extra time to accomplish what in the end should be a simple built-in feature. Very odd.

I have tried to join the DXO Forum, but I'm having difficulty doing so. When I first registered I gave them my information and email address and they were supposed to send me an email to finish the registration process. That email never came. I later try to re-register and was informed that my email address was in use and I should request a password reset. I tried that as well but never received the email to finalize the password reset. Their emails are definitely not going to my spam folder. I'm still trying to figure this one out.


Mark
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Post edited 3 months ago by MCAsan. (2 edits in all)
     
Mar 08, 2018 10:27 |  #369

for me things missing in Photo RAW:

100% non-destructive editing between all the modules. that is not the case with Layers and Resize.

On the new Import feature, no ability to setup creation of new nested folders based on things like folder for year of capture with subfolder for day of capture. All of that is easy with Lr, Photo Mechanic...etc.

On the new Import feature, no ability to use field names, such as camera body serial number, as part of the new file name. Important for me as I shoot with two bodies of the same brand and model and I don't want duplicate file names.

No auto lens correction for m43 systems that is based on raw file data. That was promised by On1 around two years ago. So far they use LensFun which still does not have the Olympus 300mm Pro lens supported 2 years after it was launched. If I want corrections from a lookup table, I will use DxO which has the best camera body and lens test data and resulting corrections I have seen.




  
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Mar 08, 2018 12:09 |  #370

mwsilver wrote in post #18580350 (external link)
I really like Capture One Pro 11 in many respects, but one of the weirdest things that they left out is an easy way to view the original image before adjustments were made. I thought it must be me when I couldn't find a button to do that and after extensive research it turns out it doesn't exist. There's ways to do it using variants, but it's cumbersome and takes extra time to accomplish what in the end should be a simple built-in feature. Very odd.
.

It may not be quite what you are looking for, but holding Alt while clicking the 'reset adjustments' shows you the original without any adjustments, then unclick and you are back to the adjusted version. You can also do this with any module (Alt + reset).

There is nothing like a slider where you can slide back and forth across the image to see before-after though.


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kirkt
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Post edited 3 months ago by kirkt. (4 edits in all)
     
Mar 08, 2018 12:56 |  #371

EDIT - @ejenner beat me to it.

mwsilver wrote in post #18580350 (external link)
...

I really like Capture One Pro 11 in many respects, but one of the weirdest things that they left out is an easy way to view the original image before adjustments were made. I thought it must be me when I couldn't find a button to do that and after extensive research it turns out it doesn't exist. There's ways to do it using variants, but it's cumbersome and takes extra time to accomplish what in the end should be a simple built-in feature. Very odd.

...

For all C1 adjustments, there is a button on the toolbar of each tool (panel) or the global toolbar across the top of the editing environment - it looks like a curved back arrow (see screenshot). This is the "reset" button, to reset a particular tool's setting or all of the settings on the selected image(s). If you hold the OPTION (ALT on PC) key while pressing this button, it will temporarily reset that tool's adjustments - if you OPT-click the global reset button on the toolbar, it will temporarily reset ALL of the adjustments - voila - a before and after button. This way you can solo a before-after to a single adjustment (on a tool's panel) or all adjustments.

Quirky, but effective.

kirk


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Mathmans
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Post edited 3 months ago by Mathmans.
     
Mar 08, 2018 13:20 as a reply to  @ ejenner's post |  #372

I guess my writing went the wrong direction. I hope no harm was done. If nothing else, present and future users know my opinion about DxO.
I was looking at Dxo forum searching for answers and found some comments about highlights recovery, but nothing to grab for so no reason to join the forum.
I suppose they would ban me the same moment I would post to forum ( smiley face ).

I did try On1 on my friends comp. On1 is still a toddler but I think they are going in right direction. If they are smart enough to listen to users and if they have a team of good programmers they could become a serious competitor to big boys.
I also tried Corel Aftershot 3 and unistalled it next day.
I have Capture One Pro 11 and somehow I don’t like the results it gives me. I’m trying to like it since version 8 but somehow it does not grab me. I also can’t believe it has no ‘’before/after’’ switch.

So I guess I will stay on Dxo and LR and Photoshop for some time. I believe Dxo will constantly improve things. Well; it should if he wants to stay in the game.

By the way; how do you set white point in Dxo? This is a serious question because I really don’t know.
LR has ‘’Whites’’ slider and Capture One has Levels and those pickers to pick on black and white point.
I can’t find nothing similar in Dxo.




  
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Mathmans
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Post edited 3 months ago by Mathmans.
     
Mar 08, 2018 13:45 as a reply to  @ Mathmans's post |  #373

What the hell….
Right after I clicked on ‘’submit post’’ I fired on Dxo and played with some photos and it occurred to me…
With local adjustments you can drag mouse away for fine adjustments and you won’t believe me….the same goes for all the sliders! Just move the mouse away holding left mouse button like you do in Local adjustments and you get very fine slider movemen.
How about that.
We definitely need more tutorials.

Still can’t figure it out how to set white point.




  
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kirkt
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Post edited 3 months ago by kirkt.
     
Mar 08, 2018 14:11 |  #374

Mathmans wrote in post #18580485 (external link)
I guess my writing went the wrong direction. I hope no harm was done. If nothing else, present and future users know my opinion about DxO.
I was looking at Dxo forum searching for answers and found some comments about highlights recovery, but nothing to grab for so no reason to join the forum.
I suppose they would ban me the same moment I would post to forum ( smiley face ).
...

Your post was spot on. Critique is good, you don't need to apologize.

kirk


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Mathmans
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Mar 09, 2018 06:18 as a reply to  @ kirkt's post |  #375

Seems like I/we discovered a solution for to much sensitive DxO sliders.
Now the developers should find a solution for interaction between Selective Tone sliders and just a little better highlights recovery and perhaps they could also add highlights reconstruction like LR has ( ;-)a ).

Here I have another one from my ''nagging bag''…
This is not a critique; it's just my curiosity.
Yesterday I was wondering why I don't like Capture One despite all those ravings on the net how it renders perfect skin tones and how natural C1 colors look.
It seems that's not the case with my Nikon camera and also it's not the case with some other cameras.
I have found a lot complaints on Google about red and orange tint Capture One generates with files from certain cameras. I've spet a few hours looking for a solution on the net but all those threads and debates ends with no solution or with advice to manually adjust ICC profile and save it as default.
Search words:
capture one color problem , capture one red tint , capture one oversaturated …etc

If I open the same file in my other RAW software there is no problem, but Capture One gives me over saturated reddish and orange tint. It recognises my camera and my lenses and changes color profile for my camera but….
It seems Capture One color profile for certain cameras does not represent those cameras as it should. On the other hand, those Phase One cameras owners seems to have no problems with colors. I wonder why.

If the only solution to this problem is buying a Phase One camera or fiddling with color settings till I get the look to my leaking I would say – don't bother. I don't need to do all this in other software I have at the moment and I certainly won't do the work the developers should do.
This is no disaster or desperate cry for help because I don't use Capture One much. It's just my curiosity and a wish to learn new things.

I just wonder if there is a better solution with Capture One 11 rather then spending afternoon fiddling with color sliders and I don't know what else and saving custom profiles.
Something like: cange to sRGB (I have) or go to settings and unclick this setting …. etc




  
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So if we are done with LR, whats our choices?
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