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Thread started 11 May 2018 (Friday) 20:57
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TIF files in Faststone

 
ncjohn
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May 13, 2018 23:57 |  #16

WiscTim wrote in post #18625332 (external link)
No, not all 16-bit TIFFs. I just did a quick scan, and I seem to mostly have problems with LZW compression and 64-bit depth (using FastStone's right-click menu Properties item and Details tab). I have files that do not have view problems that are uncompressed and others use LZW compression and 48-bit depth.

All my TIFF files (the ones that open fine as well as the ones with a problem) are 48-bit depth as I would expect (16x3) and at this time all TIFF files from Affinity are LZW.




  
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Redcrown
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May 14, 2018 00:07 |  #17

Afraid I can't help much because I don't use Affinity. But I downloaded your file. This is what I saw.

1. I get the same strange display in my Fastsone (V6.2).

2. Adobe Bridge CC and Lightroom display the file OK. So does Windows Explorer.

3. When I open the file in Photoshop I get a 16bit sRGB image with LZW compression. Although it has only one layer, it shows as "Layer 0", which means Photoshop thinks it is not a "flat" file.

4. When I save the file from Photoshop, the result looks OK in Faststone. Regardless of what compression or bit depth I use. And regardless whether it is truly flat or not. However, your original is only 866kb. The file saved by Photoshop is 1800kb to 1900kb (depending on compression).

The TIF file format is a complicated beast. It's really a "container" specification, and can contain many different types of objects - bitmaps, jpegs, text, etc. Not all programs follow the specs properly. In your case, it's hard to tell if Affinity or Faststone is the bad actor. I'd bet they each would blame the other guy.

One note - don't use LZW compression on 16bit files. There is a well known and old "bug" with LZW compression that causes it to create 16bit files that are actually larger than if no compression is used at all. LZW works great on 8bit files, and is a lot faster than ZIP. I'm curious what happens if you save your file from Affinity in 16bit and no compression. Do you still get the strange display?

Another note - Faststone has trouble with some TIF files created by Photoshop too. If a Photoshop TIF has extra alpha channels or paths, Faststone gives an incorrect display.




  
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agedbriar
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Post edited over 1 year ago by agedbriar. (2 edits in all)
     
May 14, 2018 01:39 |  #18

No better in my FastStone ver. 6.5 :rolleyes:

---------------

Once upon a time I used Serif PhotoPlus, the Affinity predecessor. All of a sudden a new version (can't remember the number) developed incompatibility with TIFFs created by Canon's DPP. Actually, PhotoPlus would open them, but was unable to re-save them after editing.

I notified Serif and they confirmed that they were able to reproduce the problem and they were working on it, but they never fixed it. So I said goodbye Serif and switched to PhotoLine by Computerinsel. No problem since.




  
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May 14, 2018 03:43 |  #19

Sounds to me like there's an alpha channel included in the file that FSIV is having issues with. At a guess I would suspect that it's simply combining the alpha channel with the rest of the image. Not sure what convolution they are using, the result reminds me of the result you get from a low pass filter.

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WiscTim
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May 14, 2018 08:33 |  #20

WiscTim wrote in post #18625332 (external link)
No, not all 16-bit TIFFs. I just did a quick scan, and I seem to mostly have problems with LZW compression and 64-bit depth (using FastStone's right-click menu Properties item and Details tab). I have files that do not have view problems that are uncompressed and others use LZW compression and 48-bit depth.

My understanding is that 24-bit depth represents 8-bit files (8 bits per color channel) and that 48-bit depth represents 16-bit files. I don't know what the 64-bit depth means, unless those are files saved as 16-bit TIFs using the ProPhoto color space instead of sRGB. I will have to do some tests tomorrow.

Okay, I am more confused now. I opened up an Affinity Photo file in Affinity Photo. I had previously exported a TIF that displays fine in FastStone Viewer, and the properties are listed as 48-bit depth and LZW compression. I exported the opened image using the 8-bit TIF and 16-bit TIF presets. The 8-bit TIF has properties listed as 32-bit depth and LZW compression and displays fine in FastStone. The 16-bit file has properties of 62-bit depth and LZW compression and does not display in FastStone.

I don't think I have changed the Affinity presets, although I may have checked the box for saving metadata. I don't see an option for selecting compression type. I was incorrect about differences in color space, the presets use sRGB. My files that have issues displaying in FastStone are all merged panoramas, although some panoramas display fine.


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ncjohn
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May 14, 2018 12:27 |  #21

Redcrown wrote in post #18625348 (external link)
1

One note - don't use LZW compression on 16bit files. There is a well known and old "bug" with LZW compression that causes it to create 16bit files that are actually larger than if no compression is used at all. LZW works great on 8bit files, and is a lot faster than ZIP. I'm curious what happens if you save your file from Affinity in 16bit and no compression. Do you still get the strange display?

Yeah, I know, but LZW is the only TIFF option offered by Affinity. Kind of a strange thing.
Thanks for your feedback.




  
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ncjohn
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May 14, 2018 12:31 |  #22

agedbriar wrote in post #18625376 (external link)
Once upon a time I used Serif PhotoPlus, the Affinity predecessor. All of a sudden a new version (can't remember the number) developed incompatibility with TIFFs created by Canon's DPP. Actually, PhotoPlus would open them, but was unable to re-save them after editing.

Way back when, I was using GIMP, DPP, and PS Elements. Trying to move TIF files between them was an adventure; I always had the feeling that DPP was the villain.




  
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ncjohn
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May 14, 2018 12:33 |  #23

WiscTim wrote in post #18625475 (external link)
Okay, I am more confused now. I opened up an Affinity Photo file in Affinity Photo. I had previously exported a TIF that displays fine in FastStone Viewer, and the properties are listed as 48-bit depth and LZW compression. I exported the opened image using the 8-bit TIF and 16-bit TIF presets. The 8-bit TIF has properties listed as 32-bit depth and LZW compression and displays fine in FastStone. The 16-bit file has properties of 62-bit depth and LZW compression and does not display in FastStone.

I don't think I have changed the Affinity presets, although I may have checked the box for saving metadata. I don't see an option for selecting compression type. I was incorrect about differences in color space, the presets use sRGB. My files that have issues displaying in FastStone are all merged panoramas, although some panoramas display fine.

I don't know what to think about the bit depths you're seeing; that's beyond me. But Affinity does not offer compression options for TIFF files, they're all LZW.




  
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ncjohn
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May 14, 2018 12:59 |  #24

I've found out a couple more things that really make me think this can't be figured out because all the different programs handle files differently.

1) I took my original file in Affinity, exported as PSD, and FSIV had no trouble opening it at all. I opened that PSD in Paintshop Pro (no problems) then saved it as a TIF file. I tried to open that TIF in FSIV, and it acted just like it did with the TIFF from Affinity. (Can't open it.)

2) BUT... That PSD correctly shows to be 16-bit in PSP, but only 8-bit in FSIV, which may be why FSIV can open the PSD but not the TIFF.

So whatever's causing the problem isn't just in the TIFF, it was also in the PSD. Apparently it's in whatever Affinity saves/exports as long as it's 16-bit. And apparently FSIV for some reason converts 16-bit PSD files to 8-bit before opening.

Geesh!




  
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agedbriar
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May 15, 2018 02:13 |  #25

I don't normally use compressed TIFs, but just tried with a 16-bit, LZW-compressed TIF file of mine, created by PhotoLine, and it opens fine in FSIV.

Your uploaded file test.tiff, which opens fine in PhotoLine, still doesn't open any better in FSIV after being re-saved LZW-compressed from PhotoLine.




  
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-Douglas-
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May 15, 2018 11:15 |  #26

I don't know if this will be of any help or not but I found this forum post about Affinity's tiff format:

https://forum.affinity​.serif.com …g-and-layered-tiff-files/ (external link)

Just skip the first part about DNGs.

Maybe it has something to do with the image being a layer and FSIV can't handle Affinity's tiff tag?

"We have registered our own TIFF tags for embedding Affinity layer data in a TIFF, in similar fashion to PSD layer data. This is intended for use with DAMs that use TIFF as their interchange format. When saving a TIFF file, if your document has multiple layers you will be given the option of including Affinity layer data. This will preserve the editable elements of a multi-layer document. This obviously comes at a cost of increased file size. Our TIFF tags will use our proprietary data format and as such can only be used by Affinity applications."


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ncjohn
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May 15, 2018 11:59 |  #27

-Douglas- wrote in post #18626134 (external link)
I don't know if this will be of any help or not but I found this forum post about Affinity's tiff format:

https://forum.affinity​.serif.com …g-and-layered-tiff-files/ (external link)

Just skip the first part about DNGs.

Maybe it has something to do with the image being a layer and FSIV can't handle Affinity's tiff tag?

"We have registered our own TIFF tags for embedding Affinity layer data in a TIFF, in similar fashion to PSD layer data. This is intended for use with DAMs that use TIFF as their interchange format. When saving a TIFF file, if your document has multiple layers you will be given the option of including Affinity layer data. This will preserve the editable elements of a multi-layer document. This obviously comes at a cost of increased file size. Our TIFF tags will use our proprietary data format and as such can only be used by Affinity applications."

We've gotten way out of my area of expertise (to say the least!) so I don't know whether Affinity's tags have anything to do with it, but I have some observations:
I used to save TIFFs with their layers intact and then I stopped doing that, so some of my TIFFs have the layers from Affinity and some don't. I've checked, and some of the files that FSIV can't open have layers and some don't. Likewise, some of the files that FSIV CAN open have layers, and some don't.
In addition, I found yesterday that a PSD from Affinity (of one of the problem images), when converted to TIFF by paintshop pro, still won't open in FSIV. Seems like that file wouldn't have had Affinity's TIFF tag when it was exported as PSD.




  
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ncjohn
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May 15, 2018 12:13 |  #28

agedbriar wrote in post #18625938 (external link)
I don't normally use compressed TIFs, but just tried with a 16-bit, LZW-compressed TIF file of mine, created by PhotoLine, and it opens fine in FSIV.

Your uploaded file test.tiff, which opens fine in PhotoLine, still doesn't open any better in FSIV after being re-saved LZW-compressed from PhotoLine.

So, again, the question of whether Affinity's TIFF tags get passed intact through other programs if, in fact, the tags are the problem.




  
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ncjohn
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May 15, 2018 12:13 |  #29

This might have been a question to post on the Affinity forum; I just assumed it was a FS problem.




  
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May 15, 2018 13:22 |  #30

ncjohn wrote in post #18626165 (external link)
This might have been a question to post on the Affinity forum; I just assumed it was a FS problem.

It's unfortunate we couldn't/haven't find a solution to this mystery yet, my guess is it's FS's fault.

On a kind of related note:
I converted your image to 32bit in PS6, saved as .tiff/no compression, FSIV 6.5 just gives me a red X on the icon!
Also, FS gives me 2 different file sizes for an 80D .cr2 I'm looking at, 6000 x 4000 24bit 30.6MB on the info but shows 6024 x4022 on the thumbnail!
The same file converted with Adobe DNG converter, looking at it in FS, shows 1024 x 683 24bit 26.3 MB on the info but has 6024 x 4022 on the thumbnail and there is
a difference of brightness (not much but noticeable) when previewing between the 2 of them!


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