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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 20 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 11:15
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Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?

 
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Mbell1975
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Mbell1975. (5 edits in all)
     
Jul 25, 2018 00:35 |  #1441
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Hogloff wrote in post #18670002 (external link)
The 5dsr sensor is already behind the latest from Sony and Nikon. If that is what Canon goes forward with...good night.

According to whom? Tech nerds who worship dxomark.com? lol. Your average consumer has no clue what a DxO mark score is, nor do they care. All they know is its Canon's most powerful sensor and if they put it in a new, FF mirrorless camera with all the bells and whistles and price it right, it will sell by the boatloads. Just watch :-) Reminds me of the kids who worshipped geekbench scores years ago and kept proclaiming the death of the iPhone because Apple was putting "old tech" in their iPhones year after year but what happened? The iPhone trounced everything else in sales anyways because most Apple fans and your average user had no clue what geekbench scores were and couldn't care less that other phones had superior tech.




  
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bobbyz
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Jul 25, 2018 03:02 |  #1442

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670140 (external link)
According to whom? Tech nerds who worship dxomark.com? lol. Your average consumer has no clue what a DxO mark score is, nor do they care. All they know is its Canon's most powerful sensor and if they put it in a new, FF mirrorless camera with all the bells and whistles and price it right, it will sell by the boatloads. Just watch :-) Reminds me of the kids who worshipped geekbench scores years ago and kept proclaiming the death of the iPhone because Apple was putting "old tech" in their iPhones year after year but what happened? The iPhone trounced everything else in sales anyways because most Apple fans and your average user had no clue what geekbench scores were and couldn't care less that other phones had superior tech.

You claim to be an expert, have you used a Sony sensor camera? Who cares for average consumers. They aren't hanging here.:lol:


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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Left Handed Brisket. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 25, 2018 07:12 |  #1443

bobbyz wrote in post #18669927 (external link)
I work at the biggest software company and making hardware is harder than most think. Apple started as a hardware company and remained so.

I'm talking about the UI first attitude that has always been the most important factor at Apple.

If/when the hardware did not exist to meet the UI requirements they develop it. They (Jobs/I've) would not compromise UI to meet capabilities of off the shelf components and that is when they developed unique hardware components.

But yeah, I shouldn't have said hardware was easy.


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Jul 25, 2018 07:16 |  #1444

bobbyz wrote in post #18669932 (external link)
Not sure what to say. Ever worked there or another company like them?

Yeah, I couldn't even muster a reply to that post.


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Jul 25, 2018 07:44 |  #1445

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18669689 (external link)
As an engineer we need to stop calling apple innovators, they never invented a thing, Jobs nicked ideas from Xerox, IBM, copied the ipod from iriver, the ipad from HP etc, and bizarrely now has a reputation as in inventor? They're not even an engineering company, somebody else makes the kit, the CPU, the screen, the sensor. A good design and awesome marketing company though...

Hehe this means no consumer electronics maker is an innovator, as there are very few companies that can source all of their components in house. But whole is greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to consumer electronics, and the innovation lies in the creativity involved with taking a bunch of components and creating end products that consumers in the market can use, will enjoy, and overall find value in.


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Post edited over 1 year ago by mystik610. (3 edits in all)
     
Jul 25, 2018 07:45 |  #1446

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670140 (external link)
According to whom? Tech nerds who worship dxomark.com? lol. Your average consumer has no clue what a DxO mark score is, nor do they care. All they know is its Canon's most powerful sensor and if they put it in a new, FF mirrorless camera with all the bells and whistles and price it right, it will sell by the boatloads. Just watch :-) Reminds me of the kids who worshipped geekbench scores years ago and kept proclaiming the death of the iPhone because Apple was putting "old tech" in their iPhones year after year but what happened? The iPhone trounced everything else in sales anyways because most Apple fans and your average user had no clue what geekbench scores were and couldn't care less that other phones had superior tech.

Fun fact: iOS is not the top selling mobile OS. Android is. Also..Apple is no the top selling smartphone manufacturer. Samsung is.

So higher sales does not equate to better products.

This is particularly true in the space for full frame mirrorless cameras. The buying process in this space is less of a popularity contest and more of an informed decision process. Chances are that if someone is dropping $3k+ on a camera, they not only understand the benefits of a FF sensor, they also find real value in things like dynamic range, less high ISO noise, faster AF etc etc as it pertains to their craft as a photographer and are willing to pay for it. At the very least, consumers in this space are doing their homework online before making a large purchase, and the weaknesses of the 5DSR sensor and the strengths of Sony’s sensors are highlighted abundantly by your typical reviewer. And of course technical ratings like DXO.

This is a stark difference to the DSLR world of old, where Canon was selling boatloads of 3 year old rebel kits to soccer moms at Costco on black Friday. That whole market was obliterated by smartphones and there has been a sharp decline in those low margin, high volume DSLRs. This is where the dynamics in the next phase of the camera market are very different and why what happened in past 10 years will not apply in the next 10 years. And while Canon’s brand will always mean a lot, the market is shifting more heavily towards high-end cameras, and the scales are tipped towards Sony’s in favor in some important aspects because they have a particularly strong technological edge. Sony’s best sensors are 3 generations ahead of the 5DSR, and 2 generations ahead of Canon’s best design (5DIV/1dxII)


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Jul 25, 2018 07:59 |  #1447

bobbyz wrote in post #18670179 (external link)
You claim to be an expert . . .

.
When did MBell claim to be an expert? . I've read all of his posts here in this thread, and see no such claim.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Hogloff
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Jul 25, 2018 08:14 |  #1448
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Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670140 (external link)
According to whom? Tech nerds who worship dxomark.com? lol. Your average consumer has no clue what a DxO mark score is, nor do they care. All they know is its Canon's most powerful sensor and if they put it in a new, FF mirrorless camera with all the bells and whistles and price it right, it will sell by the boatloads. Just watch :-) Reminds me of the kids who worshipped geekbench scores years ago and kept proclaiming the death of the iPhone because Apple was putting "old tech" in their iPhones year after year but what happened? The iPhone trounced everything else in sales anyways because most Apple fans and your average user had no clue what geekbench scores were and couldn't care less that other phones had superior tech.

You think a new mirror less from Canon with a 5dsr sensor will sell to the average consumer? It most likely will be tagged with a $4,000+ price tag...you think Joe average will go into their local Best Buy and pick one up.

It will be very knowledgable photographers that might buy such camera, ones that know the limitations and the competition...and most likely ones that are not fan boys and will purchase the best camera for them.




  
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bobbyz
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Jul 25, 2018 08:46 |  #1449

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18670306 (external link)
.
When did MBell claim to be an expert? . I've read all of his posts here in this thread, and see no such claim.

.

I was being sarcastic.


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Jul 25, 2018 10:59 as a reply to  @ Mbell1975's post |  #1450

But the people who would buy an A9 do care. A lot.

And yes, Apple lost marketshare over the last year. So it did hurt them. Being a self confessed Apple-fanboy for the last 30 years, it is making me mad that apple isn't innovating like they did. And being a Canon user for now close to 40 years, they too are irritating the heck out of me. There is nothing that Sony is doing that Canon couldn't and shouldn't be doing. I have both feed firmly in both camps (sony and canon). Canon needs to stop resting on its laurels and decide are if they going to play, or fall back to industrial imaging for their growth. Their R & D spend looks ominous that they are de-emphasizing general photography. I am hoping we see some announcements this fall that says they are committed to be competitive.... not just milk their user bases loyalty. Just my two cents.


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Jul 25, 2018 11:11 |  #1451

Croasdail wrote in post #18670403 (external link)
. . . decide are if they going to play, or fall back to industrial imaging for their growth. Their R & D spend looks ominous that they are de-emphasizing general photography. I am hoping we see some announcements this fall that says they are committed to be competitive.... not just milk their user bases loyalty.

.
To me it would seem foolish for Canon to continue to invest in still photography innovations. . How much money is really there to be made?

Digital imaging for the medical field, or perhaps for the security camera market, seems to be something that would provide a lot more revenue than the interchangeable lens camera market. . Selling to huge corporations and federal, state, and local government agencies seems like it would allow for greater gross sales and greater profits than selling to individual photographers.

Honestly, I can't understand why Canon would even bother to continue on with the still camera thing, unless they can find a way to make really great profits at it. . And I think the way to make good profits at it is to suck as much out of their customer base as they can without spending much, if anything, on research and development.

If I were a Canon stockholder who cared only about profits, I would want them to suck the existing customer base dry before abandoning still cameras altogether. . Make all the money they can, then get out. . Makes sense to me.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Croasdail
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Jul 25, 2018 11:33 as a reply to  @ Tom Reichner's post |  #1452

Unfortunately I don't think you are far off.... let's hope they surprise us all.


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Mbell1975
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Mbell1975.
     
Jul 25, 2018 13:45 |  #1453
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mystik610 wrote in post #18670297 (external link)
Fun fact: iOS is not the top selling mobile OS. Android is. Also..Apple is no the top selling smartphone manufacturer. Samsung is.

So higher sales does not equate to better products.

This is particularly true in the space for full frame mirrorless cameras. The buying process in this space is less of a popularity contest and more of an informed decision process. Chances are that if someone is dropping $3k+ on a camera, they not only understand the benefits of a FF sensor, they also find real value in things like dynamic range, less high ISO noise, faster AF etc etc as it pertains to their craft as a photographer and are willing to pay for it. At the very least, consumers in this space are doing their homework online before making a large purchase, and the weaknesses of the 5DSR sensor and the strengths of Sony’s sensors are highlighted abundantly by your typical reviewer. And of course technical ratings like DXO.

This is a stark difference to the DSLR world of old, where Canon was selling boatloads of 3 year old rebel kits to soccer moms at Costco on black Friday. That whole market was obliterated by smartphones and there has been a sharp decline in those low margin, high volume DSLRs. This is where the dynamics in the next phase of the camera market are very different and why what happened in past 10 years will not apply in the next 10 years. And while Canon’s brand will always mean a lot, the market is shifting more heavily towards high-end cameras, and the scales are tipped towards Sony’s in favor in some important aspects because they have a particularly strong technological edge. Sony’s best sensors are 3 generations ahead of the 5DSR, and 2 generations ahead of Canon’s best design (5DIV/1dxII)

Also some fun facts: There are 5 iPhone models and over 700 Android phones. Of course the top mobile OS is going to be the one that has far more devices available. The vast majority of Android phones are sold for pennies to people in poor countries who can't afford more expensive phones. Apples to oranges comparison. In the US (and several other key countries), Apple still leads Samsung comfortably in units sold and marketshare. Pretty impressive considering Apple have far less smartphones for sale and they are considerably more expensive, but I digress...I think you may be giving buyers too much credit. You wouldn't believe most of the guys I get who come to my workshops who have less than a years worth of experience but have $10k worth of gear. Flagship models from Canon, Nikon, Sony etc...and the best lenses but they have zero clue what they are doing. they fall for the hype on forums and sites like dxomark and think that buying the highest scoring and most hyped cameras and lenses will produce the best results. Even more experienced photographer I know fall into that trap. Switching brands and chasing the top scoring cameras on dxomark and convincing yourself you need what they tell you is the best camera every year and that extra 1.3 of DR will make or break your images is going down a very expensive and time consuming rabbit hole. My advice is always buy the best camera and lenses you can afford and spend your time working on your lighting, composition and post work technique rather than obsessing over silly things like megapixels, DxO scores and DR numbers, those things have never made anyone a better photographer.


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Mbell1975
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Jul 25, 2018 14:07 |  #1454
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bobbyz wrote in post #18670179 (external link)
You claim to be an expert, have you used a Sony sensor camera? Who cares for average consumers. They aren't hanging here.:lol:

Yes I have. I owned the a7 for awhile and I have shot the a7II, a7III and a7RII several times at workshops. Nice cameras indeed but for the glamour work I do, I have never noticed a significant difference over the images off one of those cameras or any of my Canon cameras. I also do not care for the Sony prime lens selection (I only shoot primes aside from the 70-200), their insane prices or using a Metabones for my Canon lenses. My needs are pretty simple in comparison to other types of shooters though. I couldn't care less about AF points, I use two, one for portrait orientation and one for landscape. I also couldn't care less about burst rates, dual card slots etc...some of my best work has been done in a studio with a Hasselblad 500C/M from the 70s with the 80mm Zeiss lens. I guess I'm old school but Ive never needed the latest and greatest to get quality photos.




  
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Jul 25, 2018 14:20 |  #1455

Now it all makes sense..



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