Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 20 Apr 2017 (Thursday) 11:15
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?

 
this thread is locked
mystik610
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,525 posts
Gallery: 31 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 8230
Joined Jan 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Post edited 7 months ago by mystik610. (4 edits in all)
     
Jul 25, 2018 14:34 |  #1456

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670534 (external link)
Also some fun facts: There are 5 iPhone models and over 700 Android phones. Of course the top mobile OS is going to be the one that has far more devices available. The vast majority of Android phones are sold for pennies to people in poor countries who can't afford more expensive phones. Apples to oranges comparison. In the US (and several other key countries), Apple still leads Samsung comfortably in units sold and marketshare. Pretty impressive considering Apple have far less smartphones for sale and they are considerably more expensive, but I digress...I think you may be giving buyers too much credit. You wouldn't believe most of the guys I get who come to my workshops who have less than a years worth of experience but have $10k worth of gear. Flagship models from Canon, Nikon, Sony etc...and the best lenses but they have zero clue what they are doing. they fall for the hype on forums and sites like dxomark and think that buying the highest scoring and most hyped cameras and lenses will produce the best results. Even more experienced photographer I know fall into that trap. Switching brands and chasing the top scoring cameras on dxomark and convincing yourself you need what they tell you is the best camera every year and that extra 1.3 of DR will make or break your images is going down a very expensive and time consuming rabbit hole. My advice is always buy the best camera and lenses you can afford and spend your time working on your lighting, composition and post work technique rather than obsessing over silly things like megapixels, DxO scores and DR numbers, those things have never made anyone a better photographer.
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by Mbell1975 in
./showthread.php?p=186​70534&i=i258002236
forum: Changing Camera Brands

Yup. Android manufacturers have a highly diverse product mix catering to a wide breadth of segments and customers. As such higher sales, even though many of those products are budget products that can't really compete with Apple's offerings.


Same reason Canon has the largest marketshare :-)


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
welshwizard1971
Goldmember
1,417 posts
Likes: 1027
Joined Aug 2012
Location: Southampton Hampshire UK
     
Jul 25, 2018 15:06 |  #1457

bobbyz wrote in post #18669932 (external link)
Not sure what to say. Ever worked there or another company like them?

Read Steve jobs authorised biography, he freely admits it....


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
welshwizard1971
Goldmember
1,417 posts
Likes: 1027
Joined Aug 2012
Location: Southampton Hampshire UK
     
Jul 25, 2018 15:09 |  #1458

Canonuser123 wrote in post #18669787 (external link)
Xerox had incredible tech at their Palo Alto Research Center and just gave it away, Xerox management were shortsighted.

And by happy coincidence Steve Jobs visited that site and saw their icon driven os research, guess what he 'invented' thereafter...


5DIII, 40D, 16-35L 35 ART 50 ART 100L macro, 24-70 L Mk2, 135L 200L 70-200L f4 IS
Hype chimping - The act of looking at your screen after every shot, then wildly behaving like it's the best picture in the world, to try and impress other photographers around you.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,801 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3294
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
Post edited 7 months ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Jul 25, 2018 15:22 |  #1459

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18669689 (external link)
As an engineer we need to stop calling apple innovators, they never invented a thing, Jobs nicked ideas from Xerox, IBM, copied the ipod from iriver, the ipad from HP etc, and bizarrely now has a reputation as in inventor? They're not even an engineering company, somebody else makes the kit, the CPU, the screen, the sensor. A good design and awesome marketing company though...

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18670589 (external link)
And by happy coincidence Steve Jobs visited that site and saw their icon driven os research, guess what he 'invented' thereafter...

If someone takes something that is in one form, and puts it into another form, then they are truly innovative, and inventive, because they came up with a new way of using something.

Invention and innovation don't just involve coming up with brand new things, they also encompass doing something a little bit different with something that already exists.
.

mystik610 wrote in post #18670296 (external link)
. . . the innovation lies in the creativity involved with taking a bunch of components and creating end products that consumers in the market can use, will enjoy, and overall find value in.

Yes - exactly!

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Croasdail
making stuff up
7,042 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 269
Joined Apr 2005
Location: North Carolina
Post edited 7 months ago by Croasdail.
     
Jul 25, 2018 15:29 as a reply to  @ post 18670552 |  #1460

.... and you could drive a car with a manual transmission, no air conditioning and crank up windows and get from point a to point b the same too, particularly if all you do is drive the same rout every day.. Doesn't mean the experience is the same.

i've done photojournalism and sports for the last 40 plus years.... and I am happy I am not still trying to manually focus, push films, am limited by role size, etc... The flexibility of the new breed of cameras is amazing, and very helpful to productivity. And in what I do, I can't do a reshoot of something goes wrong in processing... hence I love duel card slots. Not everyones use-case is not the same. If I shot in a controlled environment, yeah, a lot of that stuff would be extra. But 99.99 percent of shooters are NOT shooting ladies an a studio. But even then, things like eye focus, blue tooth control of the camera so you can shoot untethered next to the model... it all helps.

What all this stuff doesn't do though is help make pictures meaningful. It can help you take a technically perfect image... but it will not help with composition, or story, or angles, or... you get the idea. The best piano in a nobs hands will just make better sounding junk. It will not make you have good story telling skills. But it will allow you to get the camera out of the way of telling the story. The best bokeh lens in the world doesn't help much if the subject isn't interesting...


Mark
Its by knowing and mastering all the rules that you learn which ones you can break.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bobbyz
Cream of the Crop
19,279 posts
Likes: 1333
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Jul 25, 2018 17:14 |  #1461

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670552 (external link)
Yes I have. I owned the a7 for awhile and I have shot the a7II, a7III and a7RII several times at workshops. Nice cameras indeed but for the glamour work I do, I have never noticed a significant difference over the images off one of those cameras or any of my Canon cameras. I also do not care for the Sony prime lens selection (I only shoot primes aside from the 70-200), their insane prices or using a Metabones for my Canon lenses. My needs are pretty simple in comparison to other types of shooters though. I couldn't care less about AF points, I use two, one for portrait orientation and one for landscape. I also couldn't care less about burst rates, dual card slots etc...some of my best work has been done in a studio with a Hasselblad 500C/M from the 70s with the 80mm Zeiss lens. I guess I'm old school but Ive never needed the latest and greatest to get quality photos.

Understood but everyone else needs are different. I am happy with slower focus of my GFX but I wouldn't use GFX to shoot my running kids or try it at a baseball game. Eye AF is game changer for portrait folks. Now if you shoot f8/f16, all you need is one AF point. Being able to have huge DR of Sony sensors is big plus for landscape folks. Dual cards for sports, weddings, any one half professional.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bobbyz
Cream of the Crop
19,279 posts
Likes: 1333
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Jul 25, 2018 17:20 |  #1462

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18670588 (external link)
Read Steve jobs authorised biography, he freely admits it....

Try working there as an engineer and you will have different opinion.:)


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
mystik610
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,525 posts
Gallery: 31 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 8230
Joined Jan 2012
Location: Houston, TX
     
Jul 25, 2018 18:25 |  #1463

Croasdail wrote in post #18670604 (external link)
.... and you could drive a car with a manual transmission, no air conditioning and crank up windows and get from point a to point b the same too, particularly if all you do is drive the same rout every day.. Doesn't mean the experience is the same.

i've done photojournalism and sports for the last 40 plus years.... and I am happy I am not still trying to manually focus, push films, am limited by role size, etc... The flexibility of the new breed of cameras is amazing, and very helpful to productivity. And in what I do, I can't do a reshoot of something goes wrong in processing... hence I love duel card slots. Not everyones use-case is not the same. If I shot in a controlled environment, yeah, a lot of that stuff would be extra. But 99.99 percent of shooters are shooting ladies an a studio. But even then, things like eye focus, blue tooth control of the camera so you can shoot untethered next to the model... it all helps.

What all this stuff doesn't do though is help make pictures meaningful. It can help you take a technically perfect image... but it will not help with composition, or story, or angles, or... you get the idea. The best piano in a nobs hands will just make better sounding junk. It will not make you have good story telling skills. But it will allow you to get the camera out of the way of telling the story. The best bokeh lens in the world doesn't help much if the subject isn't interesting...

The thing about all the technical bells and whistles and that very many of them improve/simplify the technical processes in ways that support the creative processes. They simply help the camera get out of the way of the compositional process.

i.e. in the case of eye-AF, it eliminates the need to toggle AF points as you frame your subject at different points of the frame. This means you can engage with your subject without interruption between shots, and the flow of the shoot is much more fluid. It's particularly nice when working with models who can change poses quickly between shots. Very nice fluid flow of shot-pose-shot-pose-shot-pose without having to stop and move your AF point when your subject does something like tilt their head.

Very many other examples of how modern advancements in cameras have improved the creative process.


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Canonuser123
Senior Member
Avatar
618 posts
Gallery: 31 photos
Likes: 734
Joined Dec 2014
Location: Southern California
     
Jul 25, 2018 23:04 |  #1464

welshwizard1971 wrote in post #18670589 (external link)
And by happy coincidence Steve Jobs visited that site and saw their icon driven os research, guess what he 'invented' thereafter...

I like old tech so I pay attention to past innovations that lead to what we have today, a true visionary in computers was Douglas Englebart, his “Mother of all Demos” is on youtube and it is amazing what was already being done in 1968. The Mac didn’t come out until 1984 and the Lisa came out in 1983. Jobs company NeXT did made Unix easy to use and its operating system was the basis for modern MacOS.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Mbell1975
Member
248 posts
Likes: 61
Joined Jul 2018
Post edited 6 months ago by Mbell1975.
     
Jul 26, 2018 01:54 |  #1465
bannedPermanent ban

mystik610 wrote in post #18670575 (external link)
Yup. Android manufacturers have a highly diverse product mix catering to a wide breadth of segments and customers. As such higher sales, even though many of those products are budget products that can't really compete with Apple's offerings.

Same reason Canon has the largest marketshare :-)

But they really dont have higher sales. Android is an OS, iPhone is a phone. As I said, its apples to oranges. You have to compare the manufacturers and if you compare Apple to Samsung, LG or any other company, Apple easily bests them in sales and marketshare, at least in the US. Apple has more sales and marketshare than its top two Android competitors combined.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
KenjiS
"Holy crap its long!"
Avatar
21,262 posts
Gallery: 485 photos
Likes: 2233
Joined Oct 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY
     
Jul 26, 2018 02:26 |  #1466

mystik610 wrote in post #18670716 (external link)
The thing about all the technical bells and whistles and that very many of them improve/simplify the technical processes in ways that support the creative processes. They simply help the camera get out of the way of the compositional process.

i.e. in the case of eye-AF, it eliminates the need to toggle AF points as you frame your subject at different points of the frame. This means you can engage with your subject without interruption between shots, and the flow of the shoot is much more fluid. It's particularly nice when working with models who can change poses quickly between shots. Very nice fluid flow of shot-pose-shot-pose-shot-pose without having to stop and move your AF point when your subject does something like tilt their head.

Very many other examples of how modern advancements in cameras have improved the creative process.

Exactly

One big thing i love on my A7III is how the AF system just...does its job when tracking my dogs and using native lenses. I can set it to a huge zone (Zone Tracking AF) and its picked Luna and Ravi's eyes out easily and quickly WITHOUT using the eye detect AF (Which is sadly not corgi-compatible yet), My hit rate on the Sony is far higher than my 7DII and required significantly less messing about to get "setup"

Ive been astounded at simply just how quick, accurate and precise my A7III has been. And the 7DII wasnt a joke, nor was it bad in terms of AF performance, it was my bar, the A7III destroyed that bar and continually impresses me when i take it out

My only caveat is my 150-600, while ive learned some tricks to make it work better, is not as good on the A7III as my 7DII and has issues to put it mildly at times with odd things like suddenly triggering face detect..on a fence..when it hits, it hits, but when it misses oh boy does it miss...


Oh, i have 2 complaints really, Viewfinder and rear screen do not work with sunglasses (which sucks) and it seems to have a nasty habit of getting dust on the sensor very easily despite me being very cautious changing lenses...


Gear, New and Old! RAW Club Member
Wanted: 70-200. Time and good health
Deviantart (external link)
Flickr (This is where my good stuff is!) (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
mystik610
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
8,525 posts
Gallery: 31 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 8230
Joined Jan 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Post edited 6 months ago by mystik610. (2 edits in all)
     
Jul 26, 2018 08:42 |  #1467

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18670968 (external link)
But they really dont have higher sales. Android is an OS, iPhone is a phone. As I said, its apples to oranges. You have to compare the manufacturers and if you compare Apple to Samsung, LG or any other company, Apple easily bests them in sales and marketshare, at least in the US. Apple has more sales and marketshare than its top two Android competitors combined.


Samsung alone has higher device sales than Apple:

Samsung ended 2017 with 21.9% market share in the worldwide smartphone market, according to new data released on Tuesday by researcher TrendForce. Samsung shipped more than 310 million units during the period, according to TrendForce. That was enough to top Apple’s iPhone, which secured 15.2% market share in 2017.

To be clear, Apple is fighting a tough battle. Samsung sells a variety of smartphones that span all budget levels, including the high-end Galaxy Note 8 and Galaxy S8, as well as cheaper devices like the Galaxy J. Apple only sells iPhones, though the company has expanded its product line to appeal to a variety of budgets.

http://fortune.com …one-samsung-market-share/ (external link)

At any rate, this discussion went off on a bit of a tangent…..but the point is that there is no correlation between sales/market share and the quality of the actual product. This means that the fact that Canon a larger marketshare is not reflection on the quality of their top tier products. Their sales are what they are largely because they sell a high volume of low-tier products that I frankly don’t care for. Conversely, this also means that Sony will not necessarily capture more marketshare than Canon simply because Sony top tier products outperform Canon’s. Sony has a narrower product mix than Canon, just as Apple has a narrower product mix than Samsung.

At the end of the day all this discussion about marketshare is irrelevant to those of us looking at top-tier cameras because choosing a camera should not be a popularity contest. As much as I talked up Apple, I actually have a Samsung Galaxy s9, but I didn’t choose Samsung because they outsold Apple because that would be ridiculous. And yet a lot of people who shoot Canon wear Canon sales like its some sort of badge of honor.

I work in sales and marketing currently and spent most of my career working in corporate finance and strategy so all of this sales talk is fascinating to me. But as a photographer, I really don’t care who outsells who because it has no bearing on my photography. I’m more interested in the performance of the cameras themselves.


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
That's my line!
Avatar
9,251 posts
Gallery: 12 photos
Likes: 2047
Joined Jun 2011
Location: The Uwharrie Mts, NC
Post edited 6 months ago by Left Handed Brisket.
     
Jul 26, 2018 09:09 |  #1468

I generally agree that market share should be irrelevant to purchasing decisions and yeah, this is a little off track.

However, considering availability of used lenses is related to marketshare as is used camera availability. Even third party support is related to marketshare. Until recently Sony did not have a wide variety of flash support. Canon users also benefit from repair services for cameras/lenses that are no longer serviced by Canon.


PSA: The above post may contain sarcasm, reply at your own risk | Not in gear database: Auto Sears 50mm 2.0 / 3x CL-360, Nikon SB-28, SunPak auto 322 D, Minolta 20

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,801 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3294
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Jul 26, 2018 11:23 |  #1469

Left Handed Brisket wrote in post #18671116 (external link)
I generally agree that market share should be irrelevant to purchasing decisions and yeah, this is a little off track.

However, considering availability of used lenses is related to marketshare as is used camera availability. Even third party support is related to marketshare. Until recently Sony did not have a wide variety of flash support. Canon users also benefit from repair services for cameras/lenses that are no longer serviced by Canon.

.
Marketshare is a huge part of my purchasing decisions. . It is why I have Canon camera gear. . It is why I buy Toyota Corollas. . It is even why I bought the Stanley 32 oz. classic thermos.

There are a great number of used lenses available in the EF mount. . I can always find a better-than-normal deal on one because of the sheer number of those that are for sale. . There are also, as you say, a lot of third-party repair services available for Canon DSLRs. . And if I want accessories for my Canon DSLRs I can usually find a cheap third party accessory that is fully compatible. . If I had cameras that had less prolific sales numbers, it would be more difficult and more expensive to accessorize and service them.

Same with the reason I buy Toyota Corollas. . Because they are so common, there are always cheap brake rotors, parts of all kinds at the local junkyard, lots of YouTube tutorials on how to do repairs, etc, etc, etc.

The thermos? . Well, if I lose or break the lid for my Stanley, I know I can easily get a replacement for cheap. . So even though I liked the other thermos a lot more, I ended up buying the Stanley.

So it is with just about all of my purchasing decisions in pretty much every area of life. . Get something that absolutely dominates the marketplace, and you will have ease getting things replaced and serviced.

I am in the market for a cell phone. . The only ones I will even begin to consider are the iPhone and the Samsung. . I don't care if some other phone is much better than either. . I need something that I can get lots of information on and have compatibility with - that trumps everything else. . Marketshare is the absolute #1 factor in my upcoming cell phone purchase decision.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
7,606 posts
Likes: 414
Joined Apr 2003
Location: British Columbia
     
Jul 26, 2018 11:33 as a reply to  @ Tom Reichner's post |  #1470
bannedPermanent ban

I personally look for products that meet my needs. When I was in the need for a lighter kit for travel, Canon had nothing at all and I was forced to look elsewhere. Sony fit the bill very nicely. I don't care about market share if their products stagnate and don't meet my needs. I have gear from 40 years ago and that market has long gone...but that gear meets my needs just fine. Through my photography history I've had gear from just about every manufacture out there, some have long since gone away...and not a single piece of gear was bought because of market share...but instead because it met my needs.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

115,307 views & 836 likes for this thread
Sony A9: Is Canon doomed ?
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is kotsyphotography
291 guests, 330 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.