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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 05 Aug 2018 (Sunday) 21:22
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Does mirrorless do anything for you?

 
Mbell1975
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Post edited over 1 year ago by Mbell1975. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 07, 2018 02:01 |  #76
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Charlie wrote in post #18679034 (external link)
My most common lens is the FE 35 f2.8. Possibly the least sexy lens in the Sony lineup, yet it's a total winner for me. Total weight of 750g, less than most, if not all DSLR's by themselves.

Actually, only the Canon 5D and 6D series are over 750g. The Rebel cameras are well under 600g and XXD series cameras are under 750g. In fact, most of the newer a7 cameras are right around the same weight as the Canon DSLRs. The a7iii is only .01g lighter than the 6DII. The older Sonys USED to be very light, but these newer models are pretty much the same weight as DSLRs, so there goes that advantage...




  
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drmaxx
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Aug 07, 2018 02:24 |  #77

ML will be the future. Anytime industry sees a possibility to replace mechanics with software it will be done. The mirror will become marginalised even in the high end market as the performance difference shrinks further and further.


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Bassat
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Aug 07, 2018 02:56 |  #78
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drmaxx wrote in post #18679111 (external link)
ML will be the future. Anytime industry sees a possibility to replace mechanics with software it will be done. The mirror will become marginalised even in the high end market as the performance difference shrinks further and further.

... and TV is going to kill radio ...
... and self-driving cars will end collisions ...
... and computers will end paperwork ...




  
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drmaxx
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Aug 07, 2018 05:52 |  #79

Bassat wrote in post #18679115 (external link)
... and TV is going to kill radio ...
... and self-driving cars will end collisions ...
... and computers will end paperwork ...

... and digital killed film (RIP Ilford) ...


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drmaxx
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Aug 07, 2018 06:29 |  #80

But seriously, nowadays the ML has a market share of about a third of the sold interchangable lens cameras (e.g. https://www.digitaltre​nds.com …lr-after-mirrorless-wins/ (external link) or https://www.canonnews.​com …-2018-a-new-hope-for-ilcs (external link)). But also looking at my surrounding of people who spend more then 1000 US$ on their camera gear (call these enthusiasts) buy predominantely mirrorless, especially the younger generation. I know more then one person who 'upgraded' from DSLR to mirrorless - especially after the lag time decreased substantially. It will be this much larger share of enthusiasts that will dominate camera development and not the dwindling number of professionals.
[I now duck behind my fireproof shielding to survive the flames that will be thrown my way.... :p]


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Aug 07, 2018 07:03 |  #81

Heck yeah mirrorless does something for me!

It provides hours of reading the back and forth between internet people debating the pros and cons of either platform only to (hopefully) come to the conclusion that everyone's needs are different and it's great to have choices.

:grouphug:

:p


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Charlie
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Aug 07, 2018 07:11 |  #82

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18679102 (external link)
Actually, only the Canon 5D and 6D series are over 750g. The Rebel cameras are well under 600g and XXD series cameras are under 750g. In fact, most of the newer a7 cameras are right around the same weight as the Canon DSLRs. The a7iii is only .01g lighter than the 6DII. The older Sonys USED to be very light, but these newer models are pretty much the same weight as DSLRs, so there goes that advantage...

Unless the 6Dii lost a ton of weight over the 6D.... I had to check Canon, and it's roughly the same, 765g... Not a lot heavier, but it's not only the weight, but features for the weight along with size.

the weight has to do with the tech and unfortunate, I did shoot the original 7R and held it with that body for landscape for a long time.

Was the weight gain worth the newer features? I think so.

IBIS
Much improved AF

Those were the two items that caused the weight gain, and you've gotta weigh the benefits. With third gen, you got Z battery as well.... At that point, you've got a body that for the most part, performs a grade higher than the 5Div, going back to a lesser body would only make sense if you're trying to save some bucks.

The size is mostly unchanged, and that's the great part. Just having a small cam along with small lens makes a difference. and to compare to the 6D/6Dii, ide be shooting with the original A7... However the features of the R3 are too great for me to ignore, and still in my budget.

With the 130-150g increase, I would get double the fps, in normal or silent mode, finest EVF, way better video features (4K, 1080 120), vastly improve AF/ super solid EYE AF, IBIS, massive buffer, dual cards with full redundancy(video as well), 500K rated dampened mechanical shutter (for the few times I use it), Z battery (DSLR like performance for stills, even better for video), Joystick, and way more configure options.

You have to ask yourself, are those features worth it for the weight penalty? Nobody is going to stop you from shooting a legacy body, but you're limited to 6D like features.

Its crossed my mind as a second body, but silent shooting, IBIS, and video I enjoy too much.


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Post edited over 1 year ago by TeamSpeed. (17 edits in all)
     
Aug 07, 2018 07:13 |  #83

drmaxx wrote in post #18679181 (external link)
But seriously, nowadays the ML has a market share of about a third of the sold interchangable lens cameras (e.g. https://www.digitaltre​nds.com …lr-after-mirrorless-wins/ (external link) or https://www.canonnews.​com …-2018-a-new-hope-for-ilcs (external link)). But also looking at my surrounding of people who spend more then 1000 US$ on their camera gear (call these enthusiasts) buy predominantely mirrorless, especially the younger generation. I know more then one person who 'upgraded' from DSLR to mirrorless - especially after the lag time decreased substantially. It will be this much larger share of enthusiasts that will dominate camera development and not the dwindling number of professionals.
[I now duck behind my fireproof shielding to survive the flames that will be thrown my way.... :p]


The industry norm is to reduce mechanical moving components for more firmware/software controllable processes, so even generally speaking, it is hard to argue that the mirrorless version of photographic equipment won't eventually dominate the digital camera market. Even the automobile market recognizes this. A full electric car has only 3 fluids, 2 that are refillable (coolant, brake fluid, windshield wiper), a gas vehicle has at least 7 refillable fluids, so 4 fewer fluids means fewer electrical or mechanical pumps that fail and need replaced, lines, filtration, belts, etc. This is a more extreme example, and examples like this exist across all industries. I don't think there is such a stark difference in the camera market, but the mirrorless move seems to following this model.

Canon would no longer have to worry about algorithms for micro focus adjust, mirror mechanics and space, etc with a mirrorless implementation, which means lower support costs under warranty, less manufacturing and lower cost of manufacturing, etc while not really passing any of those savings to the consumer (unlikely anyways). They do have to add an EVF which may offset the other savings a bit though. It is in all manufacturers' best interests to go this route over time. We know it will happen, we just cannot predict the speed or length of this progression. Profit ultimately dictates this move, so it will happen.

Canon, I am sure, would love to reduce the footprint of their camera manufacturing and design by getting rid of this large component of the camera. This is the 5D4 mirror box assembly and 70D PDAF module. Both are not needed in a mirrorless version of Canon's cameras. Canon would also no longer have to have supporting firmware for 2 different AF systems like they do today.


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Hogloff
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Aug 07, 2018 08:05 |  #84
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Mbell1975 wrote in post #18679102 (external link)
Actually, only the Canon 5D and 6D series are over 750g. The Rebel cameras are well under 600g and XXD series cameras are under 750g. In fact, most of the newer a7 cameras are right around the same weight as the Canon DSLRs. The a7iii is only .01g lighter than the 6DII. The older Sonys USED to be very light, but these newer models are pretty much the same weight as DSLRs, so there goes that advantage...

Rebels are not in the same league quality wise as the A7 line...I'd never downgrade my image quality to a rebel to reduce weight.

Don't know how you calculate your weights...but I know for sure the 6dii weighs more than .01gm than the A73. And once again, the 6dii is not equivalent to the A73, which is more in line with the 5d4 camera.

The combination of a compact camera and compact lens do result in weight savings over the equivalent setup with a DSLR system. Notice I said equivalent as I'm not going to reduce image quality to get a smaller DSLR kit by going either with a rebel or low quality slow lenses.




  
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Hogloff
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Aug 07, 2018 08:09 |  #85
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Bassat wrote in post #18679115 (external link)
... and TV is going to kill radio ... Yep...only time I listen to radio is while driving to break the boredom.
... and self-driving cars will end collisions ... Don't know, but quite possibly yes. Too early to tell.
... and computers will end paperwork ... Don't remember the last time I physically filled out any paperwork. Everything I do is computerized...even paying for everything.

Updated you post with reality.




  
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Aug 07, 2018 08:17 |  #86

yea it does alot for me. I dumped my entire Canon 7DII kit and went full mirrorless Fuji and would never go back to a big bulky DSLR. the XT2 seems to best the 7D2 in pretty much everyway it seems.


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Aug 07, 2018 08:30 as a reply to  @ Hogloff's post |  #87

Several industries still deal with paper, and even faxing of paper, which we really hate supporting in our SAAS models.


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Aug 07, 2018 08:39 |  #88

drmaxx wrote in post #18679165 (external link)
... and digital killed film (RIP Ilford) ...

word processors killed typewriters

the internet killed encyclopedias

cellphones killed residential landlines

CD's killed cassettes and vinyl....then digital music killed CD's

streaming video killed DVD's...blockbuster went down in flames because they couldn't adapt.

etc etc etc.

Progress/change is inevitable when new technology offers compelling value propositions and convenience over the status quo.

Lots of discussion about size, but that's a highly subjective thing. Objectively, we are at the inflection point where mirrorless technology is starting to pull away from the limitations of a moving mirror. i.e. if we look at the a9, 20fps, blackout free shooting, fully silent shooting, 1/32000s shutter speed are only possible because there is no mirror in front of the image sensor.

Even outside of the a9, things like eye-AF, computational AF in general, lack of microfocus issues, exposure preview in viewfinder etc etc are compelling benefits that become available when you take the mirror out of the equation.


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Aug 07, 2018 08:49 |  #89

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18679252 (external link)
Several industries still deal with paper, and even faxing of paper, which we really hate supporting in our SAAS models.

'SAAS'...what is that an acronym for? Is it in common use?


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Aug 07, 2018 09:03 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #90

Software as a Service, usually seen as SaaS.


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