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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 10 Aug 2018 (Friday) 09:28
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Canon + Sony Combination

 
mystik610
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Aug 11, 2018 17:48 |  #31

I didn't say you were lying. I said you dont have extensive experience with the camera. A couple days is not enough to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of a system


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JeffreyG
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Aug 11, 2018 18:02 |  #32

mystik610 wrote in post #18682349 (external link)
Yeah on my cameras it defaults to on, and doesn't automatically switch when I mount a speedlight or trigger.

I've heard other cameras behave differently though, so I suspect that this changes depending on some sort of setting...or different brands of flashes behave differently.

Sony cameras and menus really can overly complicated.

On my A7rIII, I usually leave the EVF setting effect set to 'ON'. When I attach my Godox (actually Flashpoint, but same thing) trigger in the hotshoe and turn it on, the camera automatically changes the EVF setting effect to "OFF".

Often, that's what I want it to do. But not always. So one of my niggles with Sony is that this decision is not user configurable.


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I use a Canon 5DIII and a Sony A7rIII

  
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mystik610
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Aug 11, 2018 18:16 |  #33

JeffreyG wrote in post #18682381 (external link)
On my A7rIII, I usually leave the EVF setting effect set to 'ON'. When I attach my Godox (actually Flashpoint, but same thing) trigger in the hotshoe and turn it on, the camera automatically changes the EVF setting effect to "OFF".

Often, that's what I want it to do. But not always. So one of my niggles with Sony is that this decision is not user configurable.

Yeah that's interesting because I use Godox lights too and attaching a light doesn't change the live-view setting, but I've heard others say that it does.

I'm sure there is some setting enabled somewhere that influences this but I haven't been able to figure it out.

#Sonyalphaproblems.


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Mbell1975
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Aug 11, 2018 19:16 |  #34
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Hogloff wrote in post #18682369 (external link)
So you are using the processing optimized for your Canon camera on the Sony image and you are not happy with the outcome. Well duh!!

I shoot Sony, Canon and Fuji and each requires their own processing flow. Trying to use one on another image does not give you optimum results.

Bottom line, if you like shooting rebels, keep shooting...but please take a load off on your persuit to marginalize anything mirror less.

That was after I tweaked the colors considerably on the a7 image too. I shouldn't have to play with an image off a supposedly superior camera for 30 minutes to get it to look like it does straight off the bottom of the line, entry level Canon camera. Sony's color science and skin tones ate awful IMO. I didn't like the Panasonic or Olympus either either when I had bought GX8, GX85 and E-M10II. At least I tried out some other brands to see what was out there.




  
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Mbell1975
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Post edited 7 months ago by Mbell1975.
     
Aug 11, 2018 19:17 |  #35
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mystik610 wrote in post #18682370 (external link)
I didn't say you were lying. I said you dont have extensive experience with the camera. A couple days is not enough to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of a system

I had the a7 as well as the Panasonic and Olympus cameras I had bought for almost two weeks (14 day return policies) and did several shoots with them. That was enough for me. I wasn't about to keep wasting shoots getting subpar results.




  
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mystik610
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Post edited 7 months ago by mystik610.
     
Aug 11, 2018 19:29 |  #36

Hogloff wrote in post #18682369 (external link)
So you are using the processing optimized for your Canon camera on the Sony image and you are not happy with the outcome. Well duh!!

I shoot Sony, Canon and Fuji and each requires their own processing flow. Trying to use one on another image does not give you optimum results.

Bottom line, if you like shooting rebels, keep shooting...but please take a load off on your persuit to marginalize anything mirror less.

Yes you can't use the same post processing work flow from one system, apply the same settings to another, and then criticize the results because the color science between brands are different. Not different in terms of what is possible in terms of final results...but different in terms of starting points.

And there's a distinct difference between something being different, vs truly being objectively better. A lot of people trying a new system don't know how to distinguish the two, and immediately write off something being different, as being worse. So yes it will take some work to learn the color science of a new system. Another reason why I think it takes a while weeks to truly have a qualified opinion on a system.

Also...confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

Portraits are what I get paid to do. If skin-tones were an issue to my clients, I would have stopped shooting Sony years ago.

There was a color test video a while back. I can't find it, but despite Sony having a reputation for having bad colors, people were actually picking Sony colors as most favorable.


focalpointsphoto.com (external link) - flickr (external link) - Instagram (external link)
α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
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Hogloff
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Aug 11, 2018 19:39 |  #37
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Mbell1975 wrote in post #18682416 (external link)
That was after I tweaked the colors considerably on the a7 image too. I shouldn't have to play with an image off a supposedly superior camera for 30 minutes to get it to look like it does straight off the bottom of the line, entry level Canon camera. Sony's color science and skin tones ate awful IMO. I didn't like the Panasonic or Olympus either either when I had bought GX8, GX85 and E-M10II. At least I tried out some other brands to see what was out there.

Care to put the raw up so others can show you what is possible.




  
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Hogloff
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Aug 11, 2018 19:42 |  #38
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mystik610 wrote in post #18682426 (external link)
Yes you can't use the same post processing work flow from one system, apply the same settings to another, and then criticize the results because the color science between brands are different. Not different in terms of what is possible in terms of final results...but different in terms of starting points.

And there's a distinct difference between something being different, vs truly being objectively better. A lot of people trying a new system don't know how to distinguish the two, and immediately write off something being different, as being worse. So yes it will take some work to learn the color science of a new system. Another reason why I think it takes a while weeks to truly have a qualified opinion on a system.

Also...confirmation bias is a powerful thing.

Portraits are what I get paid to do. If skin-tones were an issue to my clients, I would have stopped shooting Sony years ago.

There was a color test video a while back. I can't find it, but despite Sony having a reputation for having bad colors, people were actually picking Sony colors as most favorable.

I saw that blind test. Yes, most chose the Sony images having the best colours. Two things come to mind:

1. Skill in processing really does matter.
2. When bias is removed by a blind test...it really changes their opinion.




  
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mystik610
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Aug 11, 2018 19:57 |  #39

Hogloff wrote in post #18682432 (external link)
I saw that blind test. Yes, most chose the Sony images having the best colours. Two things come to mind:

1. Skill in processing really does matter.
2. When bias is removed by a blind test...it really changes their opinion.

Found the video. You can see people post the results in the comments. Long story short is that people tend to pick Sony

https://m.dpreview.com …n-1dx-mark-ii-vs-nikon-d5 (external link)


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α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
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Mbell1975
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Post edited 7 months ago by Mbell1975. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 11, 2018 19:59 |  #40
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Hogloff wrote in post #18682431 (external link)
Care to put the raw up so others can show you what is possible.

I dont shoot RAW. I know, bad photographer! :p I have shot RAW before of course but comparing it to the JPEGS once everything has been resized and compressed for web use or even in any of the print work Ive done, I saw zero difference in the images. I like to get everything right on my actual shoot, not going back and having to fix a bunch of stuff in post. My lighting is crucial of course but then my sharpness, contrast, saturation...all set up in camera. Will tweak here and there in post though. For a considerable amount of my shoots, I'm taking thousands of shots. No way Im going to process all those RAW files. I have a batch process set up in PS that even smoothes the skin automatically, then I just go in to pics here and there and do spot working touching them up. My typical edit of a photo takes about 8-10 minutes.




  
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mystik610
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Post edited 7 months ago by mystik610. (2 edits in all)
     
Aug 11, 2018 20:17 |  #41

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18682441 (external link)
I dont shoot RAW. I know, bad photographer! :p I have shot RAW before of course but comparing it to the JPEGS once everything has been resized and compressed for web use or even in any of the print work Ive done, I saw zero difference in the images. I like to get everything right on my actual shoot, not going back and having to fix a bunch of stuff in post. My lighting is crucial of course but then my sharpness, contrast, saturation...all set up in camera. Will tweak here and there in post though. For a considerable amount of my shoots, I'm taking thousands of shots. No way Im going to process all those RAW files. I have a batch process set up in PS that even smoothes the skin automatically, then I just go in to pics here and there and do spot working touching them up. My typical edit of a photo takes about 8-10 minutes.

It all makes sense now :-)

And I get it. When you're shooting in the studio, and have full control of lighting and the tones in the frame, then there's very little that needs to be done in post. Put the leg work in out in the field so you have less to do in post.

At the same time, you have to realize that your experience doesn't apply to most, so you should temper how you judge a system as it relates to others.

I don't comment on sports and wildlife experience, because that's not my area of expertise.

If I'm shooting portraits outdoors, I can't dial down and re-position the sun....so some leg-work needs to be done in post to make sure the tones are massaged out in the final image. I also can't control ambient lighting in whatever crappy tungsten lit room I'm shooting a wedding ceremony in, or the mixed light nightmare in the church where they didn't let me use flash. So the latitude of the raw files matter, because that's where I control the lighting and tones I couldn't control in the field.


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α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
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Mbell1975
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Aug 11, 2018 22:37 |  #42
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mystik610 wrote in post #18682448 (external link)
It all makes sense now :-)

And I get it. When you're shooting in the studio, and have full control of lighting and the tones in the frame, then there's very little that needs to be done in post. Put the leg work in out in the field so you have less to do in post.

At the same time, you have to realize that your experience doesn't apply to most, so you should temper how you judge a system as it relates to others.

I don't comment on sports and wildlife experience, because that's not my area of expertise.

If I'm shooting portraits outdoors, I can't dial down and re-position the sun....so some leg-work needs to be done in post to make sure the tones are massaged out in the final image. I also can't control ambient lighting in whatever crappy tungsten lit room I'm shooting a wedding ceremony in, or the mixed light nightmare in the church where they didn't let me use flash. So the latitude of the raw files matter, because that's where I control the lighting and tones I couldn't control in the field.

Good points. I shoot natural light quite a bit too but after 15 years with a lot of trial and error, I know exactly what kind of look I want, or what the client wants. What time of day to shoot, how to position the model etc...so again, Im having to do very little in post. My shots look pretty much as they do straight off the camera. You are right though, someone shooting sports or wildlife will have different needs.




  
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RPCrowe
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Aug 12, 2018 15:57 |  #43

Mbell1975 wrote in post #18681585 (external link)
I have been shooting fashion/glamour professionally for 15 years and have been doing it with Canon aside from a few flirts with Sony and Panasonic. If you can't focus and recompose properly outdoors with a wide aperture, you need to work on your photography skills. I do this with fast primes on a weekly basis and with results good enough to be published in major magazines around the world. T5i, T6i, 60D, 77D, 6D...I have used them all (still use the 77D and 6D) doesnt matter. I can consistently reproduce the same results with any camera and thats what being a pro is all about really. I also know a TON of other portrait shooters who do the same. Rent the Sony first. We are spoiled by Canon's superior color science and skin tones, you will hate the look of your portraits straight out of the Sony if you are used to Canon. Then you will spend hours trying to fix it to look like a Canon image, waste of time and money IMO.

Have you tried the 6D Mark 2....

I have had absolutely no problems with any of the other DSLR cameras that I have used (10D, 350D, 30D, 40D, 7D and 7D2 and even the 5D2) or even the SLR cameras of the film days.. IMO focus and recompose is not a great option for outdoor portraiture when you have a DOF of only a few inches.

Indoors, it is no problem with controlled backgrounds I don't need the super thin DOF of an 85mm f/1.2 or even f/1.8 lens. Also, subjects in a studio situation are often more still than those outdoors.

Actually, I did a shoot this evening which turned out O.K. I used liveview and singe point AF. However, I had a Swivi viewfinder on the camera which made all the difference in the world. The Swivi sure beats the living heck out of the Hoodman Loupe and ts rinky-dink elastic ties to keep it on the camera.

I was able to move the focus spot virtually all over the frame which allowed critical focus on he eye. The liveview focus on the 6D2 covers the amount of the frame that the eye level viewfinder SHOULD COVER but, doesn't! A bit slow at first but quite accurate.


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Mbell1975
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Aug 12, 2018 18:19 |  #44
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RPCrowe wrote in post #18682890 (external link)
Have you tried the 6D Mark 2....

I have had absolutely no problems with any of the other DSLR cameras that I have used (10D, 350D, 30D, 40D, 7D and 7D2 and even the 5D2) or even the SLR cameras of the film days.. IMO focus and recompose is not a great option for outdoor portraiture when you have a DOF of only a few inches.

Indoors, it is no problem with controlled backgrounds I don't need the super thin DOF of an 85mm f/1.2 or even f/1.8 lens. Also, subjects in a studio situation are often more still than those outdoors.

Not outdoors but it has the same AF points as my 77D which are way larger and more accurate than my 6D. I have zero problems with focus and recompose on either camera but I'll admit that with the 100 f/2.8L I rented last week, the 77D was superior to the 6D both inside and outside. I always use a single AF point and focus and recompose and it locked focus immediately while the 6D and its smaller outer AF point struggled several times is it hunted to lock on the model's eye but macro lenses can be finicky. Ive had no problems shooting any of my lenses I own wide open in natural light on my 6D and it has an inferior AF system to the Mark II. As I said, maybe just work on your focus and recompose technique a bit more, either that or you got a bad camera that needs to be adjusted. Here is just one of my photos from my 135 shot wide open at f/2 on my 6D in natural light.


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mystik610
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Aug 12, 2018 18:32 |  #45

Critical focus is not on the eyes here.....eyelashes and hair are sharper than the actual eyes.


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α7ʀII - RX1ʀII - α7ʀIII
Zeiss Loxia 21 - Canon 24-70 2.8LII - Sony/Zeiss 35 f1.4 ZA - Sony 50 1.8 - Sony 85GM - Sigma 135 f1.8 ART

  
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Canon + Sony Combination
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