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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Sep 2018 (Wednesday) 02:31
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POLL: "How's the new EOS-R stack up for you?"
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It's trash
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It's good for the price
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EOS-R - It's out. Thoughts?

 
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umphotography
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Sep 14, 2018 18:36 |  #901

Timphoto wrote in post #18708048 (external link)
Yesterday I was able to play with a pre-production R body and the RF 24-105 when the Canon rep was at a local camera shop to demo the EOS R and the adaptor.

A few observations and comments:

The Canon Rep said that R body will be shipped with the basic $99 adaptor at no extra cost.

I liked the R form factor with the RF 24-105. It was more comfortable and better balanced than my Sony A7R3 with the Sony 24-105.

A friend took his EF 100-400L II and mounted it on the R body with the Canon adaptor. He was happy with the AF performance. We didn't get time to do any serious tests, but the initial impression was positive.

About half the folks there agreed that the weird toggle button was weird. :rolleyes:

I wanted to see how well a Sigma Art lens worked on the R with the adaptor, but unfortunately we didn't get a chance to try that.

I was drooling over the RF 28-70 f/2...but it's a BEAST...big as an EF 11-24 and felt heavier.

I'm in agreement with Roger Cicala's recommendation. I'm going to sit back, do my best to control my GAS disease, and watch as things develop.


well that is great news about the adapter and the 100-400 performance. Great news indeed

did he tell you the wonderful news on the 28-70 coming in at $2999.00:cry::cry::cry:


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Sep 14, 2018 18:43 |  #902

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18708002 (external link)
However...

I would have to think that a dedicated dial on what is prime real estate to be dedicated to an on/off switch seems counter to some of this. I have no logical reason why Canon would take a dial area, and have it be a toggle switch. Why not have a dial that can be configured much like the RF Lens dial to change whatever you want. Make it EC, or make it ISO, etc....

This is the most visible "silliness" I can see on the EOS-R. It would be like putting a push button start button on the left side of the steering wheel instead of radio or cruise controls, then move those controls to other areas on the dash, with a variety of a directional pad, a ring somewhere else, etc.

You have probably listed one of several differences that separate the 'mid-grade' from the 'prosumer/pro' mirrorless! There will be analogous things 'missing' or 'downgraded' to make the cheapest model mirrorless, as well. Look at the Tn vs. nnD/6D vs. 7Dn/5Dn vs. 1Dn pattern as an example of Canon philosophy in in-family product differentiation. The weird toggle switch is probably a hallmark of the 'non-pro' cameras!


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Sep 14, 2018 18:50 |  #903

umphotography wrote in post #18708085 (external link)
did he tell you the wonderful news on the 28-70 coming in at $2999.00:cry::cry::cry:

having paid $2214.15 a few years ago for the EF 24-70 L MkII (f2.8), I don't know what are you crying about!... :p


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Sep 14, 2018 19:17 |  #904

patrick j wrote in post #18708026 (external link)
The quote from DP Review is kind of funny in a way. They say it like it's almost an afterthought that it takes great pictures rather than something that's important for cameras to do well. I guess camera use has evolved quite a bit, to something where it's important to take 4k video, and by the way, it can take pictures too if you really need to do that. (I think I'm still stuck in the stone age in that way)

Well we knew it was a 5d4 sensor so you should already have a very clear idea on what kind of IQ that you are getting.
Secondly what recent camera doesnt have great IQ? So, again, for me it was expected


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Sep 14, 2018 19:25 |  #905

MakisM1 wrote in post #18708093 (external link)
having paid $2214.15 a few years ago for the EF 24-70 L MkII (f2.8), I don't know what are you crying about!... :p

I totally agree, the lens is a deal even if I have 0 desire for it.


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Sep 14, 2018 19:27 |  #906

patrick j wrote in post #18708026 (external link)
The quote from DP Review is kind of funny in a way. They say it like it's almost an afterthought that it takes great pictures rather than something that's important for cameras to do well. I guess camera use has evolved quite a bit, to something where it's important to take 4k video, and by the way, it can take pictures too if you really need to do that. (I think I'm still stuck in the stone age in that way)

The EOS R mid-range camera (and the lowest model) are probably aimed 'for the masses' who care primarily about convenience (smaller size, lower weight), so one might say it truly is an afterthought for these people how well it takes great pictures. After all, in music, size and easy song selection are proven to make the inferior MP3 file the choice of music and preferred over the higher sound quality of songs on CD! It is also more important that it takes a selfie easily or captures the action of my child in sports or school plays.


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Sep 14, 2018 21:44 |  #907

For what it’s worth I went to a Canon event and finally had a chance to try out the EOS R RF lenses and also EF adapter. All of which I had pre-ordered the moment it went live. I was very excited to try it out after hearing so many great reviews from the folks who actually used the camera. But I was somewhat disappointed as far as first impressions. No way is it going to replace my 5div.
First of all, the camera does not feel smaller nor lighter comparing to 5div. This is probably because of its uneven weight distribution. I was immediately surprised when I handled it with the smallest RF 35mm lens attached and couldn’t say right away it was lighter. Mind you I had my 5div + 35f2is in the bag with me for comparison.


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First thing I noticed right away that the camera did not feel anywhere near as solid as 5div. It’s a nice build but surprisingly somewhat plasticy feel, very reminiscent of my M50, definitely does not feel like $2300. Perceptually, even 6d body feels quite a bit more serious. The grip is not as nice as 5d and handling with large lenses such as RF 50, 28-70 f2 is absolutely ridiculous and unbalanced. It's not just the fingers but the palm! the palm wraps the 5d but not EOS R - wrist problems guaranteed after extended use with heavy lenses.

I was not the only laughing when we tried handling 28-70. 5div+70-200 f2.8 is light years ahead in handling. Even RF 24-105 did not handle nearly as nice as EF 24-105 does on 5div or 6d. On the other hand, RF 35mm lens fits EOS R perfectly. I didn’t like the experience of replacing the mode dial with the top LCD screen which is quite dark and could barely see it under direct light. It is so much faster for me to turn the mode dial to what I need even with the camera off (5div). I also tried the adapter and mounted my favorite lens of all times - EF 85mm F1.4IS. It looked absolutely ridiculous and unnatural and was so front heavy and unbalanced. I thought it would be great to have EVF so I can better stabilize the camera while recording videos - my wrist wasn't happy as I needed to use my thumb to move focus points on touchscreen, there is no joystick. And while I love the touch & drag feature on my M50, it is an ergonomic disaster on EOS R. I whish they let us use the touch bar to use as touchpad or so, cause it is in convenient location. One thing that I did like about the camera or rather lenses is the control ring. I got instantly hooked using it for exp. compensation. But I didn't like the experience with EF adapter ring and my 85mm, because it is incontinently located for this purpose. But anyway, it's not like exp.comp has ever been a problem on Canon bodies so it is a nice feature for sure but probably the most unnecessary. Anyway, I felt somewhat underwhelmed, surprised even how much Canon has deviated from their classic ergonomics by creating this grip heavy camera with most lenses that don't match. Yes, it is not nearly as bad as Sony cameras but we have a much higher bar when it comes to Canon bodies. And don't get me started on AF, is no match to 5div, even in single shot. I cancelled my preorder when I got home.
And felt so appreciative of 5div. But I also feel like Canon has commited the biggest photographic tragedy but not simply staying with EF mount for the FF mirrorless - because we could have all the features of mirrorless (except for the control ring - who cares) but with world class ergonomics. I am now quite happy with 5div and M50 combo, the latter one I hope to upgrade M5ii if it ever comes out, and I pre-ordered 32mm f1.4 after cancelling my EOS R pre-order. This is another good example - M50 perfect ergonomics, lenses that match the body and balance superbly so the touch and drag is good.


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I find it funny how everyone keep saying that this is some sort of entry level model. The lenses that were released at launch are meant for the most prolific high earning photographers, not amateurs or enthusiasts. The guy at Canon told me that EOS R would be good a second body to my 5div and was not meant to replace it. It made zero sense to me because the handling is quite a bit different preventing from seamless switching and RF lenses don't work on 5div. Something like 6dii or even 80d makes a lot more sense as a second body. In my case, M50 makes more sense as a second body cause it handles more similarly to 5div.

P.S. After the event I thought about who is this camera for? And to my srprise, I came to the conclusion that this camera would be perfect for Sony users. Primarily those who use EF lenses. They will actually see improvement in ergonomics.



  
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Sep 14, 2018 22:07 |  #908

The EOS-R weighs the same as a 6DII and about a 1/3 lb lighter than the 5D4. I'd say size and weight are on par to what I'd want as a working professional, the Sony and Fuji lineups never fit well in my hands for all day shooting.


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Sep 14, 2018 22:24 |  #909

Artsf,

After shooting the a7r3 for 7 months I find I’ve adapted to the ergonomics well. I shoot my 200/2 adapted to it. Hardly anything else comes close to that screwed up of a setup. I also surely would not replace my features for the ergonomics either.

I agree with your post 100%. You don’t release this mid grade camera with top notch glass.

Also. I shoot heavy glass but at the same time the 85 FE 1.8 is a real perfect combo on the Sony just as much as the 12-24 is and lots of other glass song has to offer.

Canon most definitely has a fight. And it will take 4-5 years to overcome Sony with a complete system.


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Sep 14, 2018 22:41 |  #910

Talley wrote in post #18708200 (external link)
Artsf,

After shooting the a7r3 for 7 months I find I’ve adapted to the ergonomics well. I shoot my 200/2 adapted to it. Hardly anything else comes close to that screwed up of a setup. I also surely would not replace my features for the ergonomics either.

I agree with your post 100%. You don’t release this mid grade camera with top notch glass.

Also. I shoot heavy glass but at the same time the 85 FE 1.8 is a real perfect combo on the Sony just as much as the 12-24 is and lots of other glass song has to offer.

Canon most definitely has a fight. And it will take 4-5 years to overcome Sony with a complete system.

That's assuming Canon actually fast tracks their RF glass and improves the EOS R with a mk2 and mk3 very soon. Has Canon displayed a lens map with time of introduction? Nikon has done this so I'm assuming Canon has also.


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Sep 14, 2018 23:01 |  #911

Talley wrote in post #18708200 (external link)
Canon most definitely has a fight. And it will take 4-5 years to overcome Sony with a complete system.

Agreed. Sony and others have a big head start, and Canon has to play the long game if they want to have any chance of being a serious competitor.

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Sep 14, 2018 23:09 |  #912

mcoren wrote in post #18708215 (external link)
Agreed. Sony and others have a big head start, and Canon has to play the long game if they want to have any chance of being a serious competitor.

Mike

I am not at all concerned about that. Canon has already demonstrated that RF mount is superior FF mirrorless mount. It’s always about lenses not bodies. 3 unbeatable L lenses and a high quality consumer lens at launch not bad, expect another 4 within a year. I would not hesistate to invest in it unlike other mounts. However, I am hoping for EF FF mirrorless body which makes the most sense ergonomically and because there are excellent EF lenses already from Canon and third larty manufacturers. OK, RF lenses can be sharper in the corners but it’s knit picking at that point. Imagine 5div body but with articulating screen, EVF, and plenty of space to use for innovative solutions.
But if I would to invest 10k; there is no way I’d invest that kind of money in E mount with well known limitations when it comes to lens design. I understand that Canon’s long game is 120MP sensor that only RF lenses can resolve.




  
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Sep 14, 2018 23:29 |  #913

artsf wrote in post #18708218 (external link)
I am not at all concerned about that. Canon has already demonstrated that RF mount is superior FF mirrorless mount. It’s always about lenses not bodies. 3 unbeatable L lenses and a high quality consumer lens at launch not bad, expect another 4 within a year. I would not hesistate to invest in it unlike other mounts. However, I am hoping for EF FF mirrorless body which makes the most sense ergonomically and because there are excellent EF lenses already from Canon and third larty manufacturers. OK, RF lenses can be sharper in the corners but it’s knit picking at that point. Imagine 5div body but with articulating screen, EVF, and plenty of space to use for innovative solutions.
But if I would to invest 10k; there is no way I’d invest that kind of money in E mount with well known limitations when it comes to lens design. I understand that Canon’s long game is 120MP sensor that only RF lenses can resolve.

We are discussing hardware so it's understandable we can discuss specifications and graphs/charts in tests.

In due time I'll invest in Canon FF mirrorless. I just wont defend Canon for developing a mk1 version without dual memory cards. We know Rebels and XXD Canon bodies are not built for "so called" professional application. Excluding dual cards in 2018 in a body worth $3000 CDN before tax is really pushing the limits of nickle and diming loyal Canon fanboys wanting a capable mirrorless full frame. That was a major upset for many wanting a true full frame mirrorless alternative to a 5dmk4.

There is no doubt in my mind I'll be buying a Canon FF mirrorless. It's just a matter of waiting for slug paced Canon to provide a capable system with native glass that meets my needs. This takes time which I have!!

Thing about camera gear is that we can all adapt or accept whatever limitations it has.

All this talk and no one ever mentions the photographer's preference in colour science or how the system renders. Testing the Fuji X-t3 I'm very impressed with the AF system (limited testing) only thing that I truly wish was that Fuji has high iso capabilities like a FF Nikon/Canon/Sony in the X-t3 body. The dof difference I can almost deal with but the clean files at high iso's cannot match my Canon/Sony system. I do like Fuji render and Fuji's auto white balance. I love Canon render as well as the different look Sony gives.

I stuggle to own one system simply because of different render.


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Sep 14, 2018 23:39 |  #914

artsf wrote in post #18708218 (external link)
I am not at all concerned about that. Canon has already demonstrated that RF mount is superior FF mirrorless mount. It’s always about lenses not bodies. 3 unbeatable L lenses and a high quality consumer lens at launch not bad, expect another 4 within a year. I would not hesistate to invest in it unlike other mounts. However, I am hoping for EF FF mirrorless body which makes the most sense ergonomically and because there are excellent EF lenses already from Canon and third larty manufacturers. OK, RF lenses can be sharper in the corners but it’s knit picking at that point. But if I would to invest 10k; there is no way I’d invest that kind of money in E mount with well known limitations when it comes to lens design. I understand that Canon’s long game is 120MP sensor that only RF lenses can resolve.

I'm not impressed with the L glass.

They build them as large as possible, which loses a lot of the mirrorless appeal of small and nifty.

I'm not seeing anything special, and while the lenses are sharp, you kind of expect that to be the case. When you talk of superior mount, I was expecting to see SMALLER and HIGHER resolving lenses, not bigger. Anyone can make gigantic elements to resolve well, Sigma has an entire lineup of high resolving lenses.

RF 50 f1.2L vs Sony 55 f1.8
https://www.the-digital-picture.com …omp=0&FLIComp=0​&APIComp=0 (external link)

one lens is near 1KG, the other 280g

it can be argued that the longer you shoot mirrorless, the more you'll favor small and light.

I'de even go as far as to say that you'll be owning or looking to own small lenses rather than having a whole other camera system to act as a compact system.


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Sep 14, 2018 23:52 |  #915

Charlie wrote in post #18708231 (external link)
I'm not impressed with the L glass.

They build them as large as possible, which loses a lot of the mirrorless appeal of small and nifty.

I'm not seeing anything special, and while the lenses are sharp, you kind of expect that to be the case. When you talk of superior mount, I was expecting to see SMALLER and HIGHER resolving lenses, not bigger. Anyone can make gigantic elements to resolve well, Sigma has an entire lineup of high resolving lenses.

RF 50 f1.2L vs Sony 55 f1.8
https://www.the-digital-picture.com …omp=0&FLIComp=0​&APIComp=0 (external link)

one lens is near 1KG, the other 280g

it can be argued that the longer you shoot mirrorless, the more you'll favor small and light.

I'de even go as far as to say that you'll be owning or looking to own small lenses rather than having a whole other camera system to act as a compact system.
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Hosted photo: posted by Charlie in
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forum: Canon EOS Digital Cameras

One has to wonder what are non-fans of L glass (best lenses in the world) doing on Canon forum? I’d argue that Canon’s strongest position is its insane EF lens catalogue unmatched by anyone: not just variety and optical rendering but the built quality, af motors, ois design, support, etc.
Mirrorless and small is possible if you are willing to compromise on sensor size or lens properties. I personally prefer larger camera with small lenses. The palm needs to wrap around the grip for proper ergonomics with large lenses. I’ve used A7rii with 85GM and 24-70GM for quite sometime, never again. EF85IS and EF 24-70ii are just so much nicer and much better value. I have never met a loyal Sony customer




  
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