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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 05 Sep 2018 (Wednesday) 02:31
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POLL: "How's the new EOS-R stack up for you?"
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EOS-R - It's out. Thoughts?

 
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john ­ crossley
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Sep 26, 2018 00:46 |  #1456

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18716148 (external link)
Yes that is true indeed, and that is why we have the silly "feature on/feature off" across the various Canon models. Canon effectively has 9 different DSLR model lines or tiers, which is just silly, and the only way to differentiate is to cherry pick features amongst them. Now they have introduced a 10th, and possibly 2 more yet again.

3 mirrorless lines (rebel-like mirrorless, 6d like mirrorless, and a high end mirrorless), and then they can decide what to do with the 7D/5D/1DX.

Why is it silly? It is what product manufacturers do, it's called giving the consumers a choice.
Here in the UK Volkswagen make 14 different models with an average of 5 variants per model. that's a total of 71 differently spec'd cars to choose from. It's called choice.


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Sep 26, 2018 04:25 as a reply to  @ john crossley's post |  #1457

True, but I think it's more like every car being fitted with a standard braking module that has ABS, but only activating it on some of them.


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Sep 26, 2018 05:05 |  #1458

A Yellow-tailed black cockatoo. Not rare, but not that common and difficult to get a photo as they are timid. A got a few shots this afternoon before this one got spooked by the shutter sound and the flock of 4 fled. Cropped and this was 1000mm focal length.
Silent shutter would be a killer feature for this situation.


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Sep 26, 2018 06:01 as a reply to  @ john crossley's post |  #1459

It's silly because dslr sales have dropping, but Canon keeps increasing its model lines and the only differentiator are things like 1/4000 vs 1/8000, or wifi or no wifi, or top display or not, etc. There are four distinct rebel lines, for Pete's sake, how much choice do we need in the sub 1000.00 range?


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umphotography
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Sep 26, 2018 07:05 |  #1460

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18716027 (external link)
Whatever you want to call EF and EF-S lenses in this debate doesn't really matter, the point is their existence can not be dismissed, and that fleet of lenses ends up being the biggest selling point of the EOS-R vs. any other mirror-less out there. With the EF lijne up there are very few strong reasons to consider this particular camera.

The RF mount and the "show piece" lenses we have so far indicate enormous potential. However aside from the 4 lenses we have, it is only potential at this point. If we relied on native lenses only, we'd not see the R selling much as;

A- not many are going to be interested in such costly showpiece "proof of concept" glass,

B- not many will be able to put together a kit based on the two more kit-like lenses.

So call them what you like, the EF/EF-S lens line up is going to be the R's selling point for some time as the "native" lenses trickle out over the next decade.

Agree 100%

Especially for canon shooters.

I dont think canon shooters are opposed to a mirrorless body. I know I am not. I could care less if it has a mirror or not. I just want the mirrorless body to do what the current top Dslrs do. ISO performance and AF performance at the top of my list. Has to be clean at 12800 and has to track and lock in poor light or I wont Buy. 25000 Iso capabilities is a bonus. That puts the sensor in Nikons D5 and Sonys A9 territory

A- I need my current arsenal to work with a mirrorless body
B- I want my OCF flash systems to work with a mirrorless as they currently work with Dslr bodies
c- I Love that the EOS-R cameras will allow me to have best of both worlds with the optics-
D- Not opposed to buying R glass at all

E- Now get a camera on the market with dual cards and lets dance

Canon has my attention for the reasons above, Zero need to play in Sony land if Canon can accomplish this. And I am very sure many canon shooters and Nikon shooters feel the same way


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Sep 26, 2018 07:19 as a reply to  @ umphotography's post |  #1461

I love the ISO performance on the 5D4, now that I have shot with that for 2 years, I cannot go to something lesser on FF. Dual cards has been great too, raw on CF, JPG on SD, and I rarely need to go to the raw, but if I do, they are on accessible.

I shoot at 25600 all the time these days.


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Sep 26, 2018 07:22 |  #1462

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18716562 (external link)
I love the ISO performance on the 5D4, now that I have shot with that for 2 years, I cannot go to something lesser on FF. Dual cards has been great too, raw on CF, JPG on SD, and I rarely need to go to the raw, but if I do, they are on accessible.


agreed

for weddings I have to shoot full raw to both cards.I am in mixed color lighting way way to much. I need the latitude that raw file provides for color correction needs in post. Jpeg is great but just not there for weddings work in reception rooms and mixed light


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Post edited 5 months ago by TeamSpeed. (4 edits in all)
     
Sep 26, 2018 07:24 |  #1463

These are my results from 5D4 JPEG from camera these days, and it seems to get better with age and the longer I use the high ISOs. Just feels that way anyways.

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Mixed color lighting whether LED or with gels would indeed pose issues though. Fortunately reception photos are more forgiving than ceremony shots. Those are memory shots and rarely are printed large.

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Sep 26, 2018 08:34 |  #1464

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18716530 (external link)
It's silly because dslr sales have dropping, but Canon keeps increasing its model lines and the only differentiator are things like 1/4000 vs 1/8000, or wifi or no wifi, or top display or not, etc. There are four distinct rebel lines, for Pete's sake, how much choice do we need in the sub 1000.00 range?

With respect, I think in a shrinking market, having more options is an advantage, especially at the low end of the range. The first-time DSLR buyer walking into Best Buy or Target has more choices at many price points. One person might just want the cheapest one, someone else might be willing to pay more to have more capabilities. These aren’t people who likely spend lots of time on POTN. They don’t have lenses already, they don’t plan to post process, they just want a decent camera that will give them decent images. More models at different prices, even if only by $50 or so, makes it more likely that Canon will have something that appeals to them.

For many of these buyers, this will be the only “real” camera they ever buy. But for those who do buy again in the future, whether at the low end again or moving up to an xxD, they may be more likely to buy Canon again because they will know how to use it and be comfortable with it.

Many of the differences between models are just firmware. It’s not as though Canon has to spend years of development effort for each one. The price difference between models is likely not about profit for Canon, but about product positioning. It gives lots of entry points into the Canon “ecosystem”.

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Post edited 5 months ago by TeamSpeed. (8 edits in all)
     
Sep 26, 2018 08:52 |  #1465

mcoren wrote in post #18716603 (external link)
With respect, I think in a shrinking market, having more options is an advantage, especially at the low end of the range. The first-time DSLR buyer walking into Best Buy or Target has more choices at many price points. One person might just want the cheapest one, someone else might be willing to pay more to have more capabilities. These aren’t people who likely spend lots of time on POTN. They don’t have lenses already, they don’t plan to post process, they just want a decent camera that will give them decent images. More models at different prices, even if only by $50 or so, makes it more likely that Canon will have something that appeals to them.

For many of these buyers, this will be the only “real” camera they ever buy. But for those who do buy again in the future, whether at the low end again or moving up to an xxD, they may be more likely to buy Canon again because they will know how to use it and be comfortable with it.

Many of the differences between models are just firmware. It’s not as though Canon has to spend years of development effort for each one. The price difference between models is likely not about profit for Canon, but about product positioning. It gives lots of entry points into the Canon “ecosystem”.

Mike

No, each of the 4 lines are different from each other in form, hardware and function. It isn't firmware that differentiates them. Therefore each went through a full product development lifecycle, albeit probably accelerated ones. Consumers don't need 4 different Rebel lines in the $500-1000 range, they don't even know what those differences are. POTN members are different in that regard in some ways, but represent a speck of the consumer market.

I hope the EOS-R is the regrouping effort that Canon needs to do, so that they can redefine their camera lines over the next 5 years. They also need to stop the feature game as being the only real differentiator and have something a bit more meaningful. Does a camera with a 1/4000th shutter really sell better than a camera with a 1/8000th, for instance?

I am glad there are choices, but if you look across the entire Canon camera lineup, wow.... Just under 10 different lines in the DSLR market alone, but then look at all the others combined in the camera space. As folks move to more equipped phones with dual cameras and better software to make that "DSLR" look, many of those dedicated cameras will die off, and eventually bleed into the rebel sales. I am seeing more parents in the stands with phones, ipads, smaller cameras and fewer with rebels and Nikon equivalents. That was different just 4 years ago. I use large parent gatherings at school events to gauge where camera sales are heading, perhaps that is just a bad choice? I figure they represent the largest consumer base for Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. ;)


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John ­ Sheehy
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Sep 26, 2018 09:13 |  #1466

Choderboy wrote in post #18713373 (external link)
It can be called that but it is wrong. An EF-S lens cannot be mounted on a APS-H or Full frame camera. The mount is different from an EF-S.
A physically different mount should, IMHO, warrant exclusive use of the term EF-S to actual EF-S lenses.

Crop is an easy word and that's what an 18-35 Sigma is.
Rather than misinforming people that the Sigma is an EF-S lens, the word crop is accurate and then DC can be mentioned, the Sigma term to describe a crop lens.
(And Di-II for Tamron crop lenses)

Of course, giving the dimensions of the image circle (sometimes masked as rectangular) is more useful than just two binary classes.

There is no reason why the dark areas outside of the image circle should take a lot of bytes in a good compression scheme, especially at base ISO. Using lenses designed for crop cameras on FF cameras should give a lot of variation in actual image circle sizes, and usability levels of the edges. The pixel density on the R is superior to any APS-C less than 12 MP, and a larger capture area will allow more freedom of software cropping, and rotation, too (even if the image circle is barely larger than the APS-C sensor diagonal). I'd be annoyed if the camera did not allow FF images with EF-S lenses, at least as a custom function option.




  
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Sep 26, 2018 09:16 |  #1467

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18716611 (external link)
POTN members are different in that regard in some ways, but represent a speck of the consumer market.

That was precisely my point. :)


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John ­ Sheehy
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Sep 26, 2018 09:27 |  #1468

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18713443 (external link)
Canon and Sony run neck and neck with DR, and get very close the higher up the ISO range you go.

"DR" itself is a hollow academic metric up the ISO scale. DR tells nothing directly about input-referenced noise, which is what really matters at high ISOs. DxO gets this right in a way by reporting both in their DR graphs; the dots plot DR, and by compensating for highlight headroom with horizontal shifts of the dots, the trends are proxies for input-referred read noise (real read noise at real ISO exposure indices). PDR does not compensate for headroom, and does not report real read noise at real ISO exposure indices, but that doesn't stop people from interpreting PDR that way.




  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Sep 26, 2018 09:37 |  #1469

Strick wrote in post #18713518 (external link)
Seems many are getting way to stuck on semantics. A EF-s lens is a EF mount, period, it is a "EF"-s lens though. Only difference is how close the rear element sits back.

Well, I would think that there is the possibility of a lens with an EF-S mount that doesn't need to protrude further into the chamber, designed for an APS-C sensor for other reasons. I don't know if any real lenses are like this, but it is always a possibility that Canon could design a lens that doesn't need the smaller mirror but is crop-keyed with an EF-S mount because of poor qualities outside of the APS-C frame.




  
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Sep 26, 2018 09:54 |  #1470

sploo wrote in post #18713608 (external link)
Yes. That's an excellent video as it not only shows how to mount an EF-S lens on an EF body, it also demonstrates why it can be dangerous (the protruding rear element).

I found another such danger, the hard way. I used an adapter to use my old Pentax 50mm M lens on my crop Canon camera, and I may or may not have heard the warnings, but I eventually put it on a FF camera and the mirror hit the aperture lever on the lens, and this ripped some of the damping material off of it.

I hate when that happens.




  
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