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FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
Thread started 30 Oct 2018 (Tuesday) 19:08
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dSLR for 4k Video

 
SailingAway
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Oct 30, 2018 19:08 |  #1

I'm quite invested in Canon bodies and glass, both for stills and video, including a C100 body. Lots of peripheral gear, some specific to Canon.

I'm thinking to downsize from camcorders to a dSLR... but, it's probably time to go 4k. Which means goodbye Canon, unless I pony up for a 1DXr2 or something. Urk, that's a lotta' dollars!

Obviously there are some market leaders from Panasonic and Sony... but what cams should I consider?

Of course I want the best of all worlds:
Full frame (could compromise here to APS-C or M4/3)
4k-60fps or even 120fps
1080p-120fps or even 240fps
Great color science, pretty images
Mirrorless seems best
Light, strong, easy to use
Have grown to love Canon's DPAF... who else is doing phase AF?

What should I be considering besides a Panasonic GH5s or Sony A7-something? Which Sony A7?


From the upper left corner of the U.S.
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70D, Sigma 8mm, Tokina f2.8 11-16, Canon EF-S f2.8 17-55, Sigma f2.8 50-150 EX OS, Tamron 150-600VC. Gigapan Epic Pro, Nodal Ninja 5 & R10.

  
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Croasdail
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Nov 01, 2018 07:17 |  #2

at 4k... not sure 120 fps with the sony is a real option...

Is there reason you need 120 and 240 fps?


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SailingAway
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Nov 01, 2018 19:05 |  #3

Croasdail wrote in post #18741361 (external link)
at 4k... not sure 120 fps with the sony is a real option...

Is there reason you need 120 and 240 fps?

I don’t know what the options are.

High framerates are for slow-motion. Within reason - really, I don’t know what’s possible with small 4k cameras.


From the upper left corner of the U.S.
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70D, Sigma 8mm, Tokina f2.8 11-16, Canon EF-S f2.8 17-55, Sigma f2.8 50-150 EX OS, Tamron 150-600VC. Gigapan Epic Pro, Nodal Ninja 5 & R10.

  
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ericbowles
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Nov 17, 2018 05:29 |  #4

What are you thinking? :-)

I would never suggest changing systems for a particular body and feature set. Within a year or two, others will match the feature set. I'd slow down on even considering that option. And I shoot Nikon with a D850 and a now a Z6.

Features are changing rapidly. Canon has an entry to mirrorless now, and will be following with more shortly. They are kind of stuck with the change from CFast to CFExpress, so I suspect that affects the timeline for upper level cameras. They can't release XQD cameras like Nikon did as the market won't accept it. The CFExpress is the next step, but there are no cards in the market right now. And CFast is a dead end with an announced replacement. So they would have to settle for SD UHS-II - which is inferior to CFExpress. They can't do that in a flagship model.

If you wait 6-9 months, Canon will give you a better alternative. For now, the Cannon mirrorless is an alternative with a transition path without changing out a lot of gear.


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virsago_mk2
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Nov 17, 2018 06:13 |  #5

1DX2 seems to be a no-brainer choice here.


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davesrose
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Post edited 3 months ago by davesrose. (2 edits in all)
     
Nov 17, 2018 10:01 |  #6

ericbowles wrote in post #18752802 (external link)
And CFast is a dead end with an announced replacement. So they would have to settle for SD UHS-II - which is inferior to CFExpress. They can't do that in a flagship model.

If you wait 6-9 months, Canon will give you a better alternative. For now, the Cannon mirrorless is an alternative with a transition path without changing out a lot of gear.

Just because there's a new standard that's been finalized, it doesn't mean the current one is dead. In the case of memory, usually the first items coming out don't have that much speed improvement initially. CFast is a pretty popular memory with pro cinema (Arri, Black Magic, Canon)...so memory manufacturers aren't suddenly stopping CFast card production.

Canon actually has had APS-C mirrorless for awhile now. One of the cheapest Canon cameras for UHD is the M50. The new FF mirrorless (Canon R) shoots 4K with 1.7x crop. One advantage of crop is that there's potentially less resampling errors for scaling the frame. If FF video is a must, then 1DX2 is the main option (It's still APS-H in 4K, but still close in framing).


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SailingAway
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Post edited 3 months ago by SailingAway.
     
Nov 17, 2018 12:35 |  #7

I’ve generally been happy with Canon crop dSLRs, and with their Cine line as well. Somewhat a Canon fanboy, mostly because I love the imagry.

Canon’s product marketing category decisions not so much!

I did research the EOS R mirrorless. And the M50. It is full-frame for stills, but, as mentioned above, 1.7x crop for 4k video. For a video-centric user who also does stills it’s just the wrong approach. Not to mention the money, as they try to create a new and profitable mount system. I can’t support it for as little as it goes to video. Maybe ericbowles will be right about new products to come, but the fact that the first salvo of the mount system is totally premium priced for *ahem* substandard 4k video is a real turn off. They’ve gone premium, but Canon hasn’t done the big lift for video. Maybe they will, but second-guessing their product strategy, hoping they’ll “do the right thing” is a losing proposition.

“(crop 4k)... One advantage of crop is that there’s potentially less resampling errors...” OK, fine, the image processing is more challenging to do a 4k full frame. The FF-4k engineering exists, it’s been done. Why buy FF to use as a crop cam? Especially since much of my work tends towards the wide and ultrawide looks. A combined FF/crop camera seems the worst. Oh, I have this ultrawide glass for stills, but then this other set of glass for video? Puh-lease!!!

I find myself falling into the same tired discussions about brand comparisons. But really, I don’t care about brand. Is there *now* a camera that has most or all of what I’d like? Pros and cons? We could speculate about unannounced products, we could debate brand goodness... but, my most important question is:

What’s going on for high-end video-capable or video-centric dSLRs in the non-Canon brands?

Mirrorless 4k.
Crop or FF, but not both! FF preferred.
Compact.
Sweet imagry.
Phase servo AF. (What Canon calls DPAF)

***edit***
Just re-read the M50 specs - it does 4k only up to 24p, doesn’t even cover 30p. Ugh.


From the upper left corner of the U.S.
Photos, Video & Pano r us.
College and workshop instructor in video and audio.
70D, Sigma 8mm, Tokina f2.8 11-16, Canon EF-S f2.8 17-55, Sigma f2.8 50-150 EX OS, Tamron 150-600VC. Gigapan Epic Pro, Nodal Ninja 5 & R10.

  
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SailingAway
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Nov 20, 2018 12:19 |  #8

Apparently I should add the Nikon Z7 to the list of 4k mirrorless cams to consider.

However, between the bodies and new lenses that take advantage of them, this is starting to look like silly money, maybe $10k USD to get started.

When it comes right down to IQ, features, and total system costs, 4k full-frame in small dslr/mirrorless packages is looking a bit half-baked, not quite there in the value equation.

4k on Super35 at 1.5-1.6 crops remains in the running. Comments? Ideas?


From the upper left corner of the U.S.
Photos, Video & Pano r us.
College and workshop instructor in video and audio.
70D, Sigma 8mm, Tokina f2.8 11-16, Canon EF-S f2.8 17-55, Sigma f2.8 50-150 EX OS, Tamron 150-600VC. Gigapan Epic Pro, Nodal Ninja 5 & R10.

  
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Nov 29, 2018 16:45 as a reply to  @ davesrose's post |  #9

I'm certainly not saying CFAst is dead. But Canon is in a tough situation that you can't very well launch a new, high end camera with CFast right now given that CFExpress is a few months away. CFast will continue to be used in existing cameras, but a new high end camera today would be criticized for using CFast or even SD cards since CFExpress is the agreed to successor. For Canon, it just means wait a bit on announcing the next upper end camera model. No doubt it will be a very good camera when announced.


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inthedeck
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Nov 29, 2018 16:52 |  #10

Bottom line, for 4K video, is the Sony A7S II - https://www.dpreview.c​om …i-shoots-up-to-iso-409600 (external link) - in my opinion, save for a dedicated Camcorder.


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davesrose
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Nov 29, 2018 17:08 as a reply to  @ ericbowles's post |  #11

Given that memory speeds aren't exceeding the bus, there can still be a slow transition to CFExpress. You're acting like Canon is the only brand that uses CFast, when CFast is very popular with cinema brands (and they tend to have a long intended lifespan for a system).


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Dec 01, 2018 20:52 |  #12

I have no idea why there's a big debate over memory cards. As long as the camera can perform as advertised, I really don't care how one technology compares to another. It's absolutely pointless IMO.

Sony A7III will ring all your bells except 4K60. So will the A7RIII, but its more expensive and the focus points don't go all the way to the edge of the frame. Very good AF and very good lens ecosystem. My only issue is 1080p looks a bit soft compared to other cameras.

The Panasonic GH5 would be a good choice but for two reasons: MFT sensor limits tight DOF, and poor AF for moving subjects. But it does 4K60 and 1080P up to 180 fps, has IBIS and a large ecosystem of lenses. Panasonic also has great color science.

The Fuji X-T3 is also worth looking at. 4K60 and 1080P up to 120. The camera can also record internally at up to 400mbps in 10-bit (albeit 4:2:0) color at 4K, and 200mbps at 1080p. You will either love or hate the dedicated ISO and Shutter Speed dials, and lens-mounted aperture ring (just like film cameras of old). Fuji is well known for their excellent color science. This is an APS-C sensor, so there is some loss of background blur in tight DOF situations, but not as much as MFT. Unfortunately, the camera does not have IBIS and the lens ecosystem is limited (particularly, no "normal" zoom with constant f/2.8 and IS). Also, the camera does not have a separate shutter release and video record buttons -- you have to change the mode dial to switch between stills and video. If you frequently intermix stills and videos, this will be a problem. The X-T3 also lacks a second memory card slot for redundancy.

I would give the market another 12-18 months to mature. I don't hold out much hope for Canon's FF, as they seem to be incapable of making a camera that can use the entire sensor width in 4K (everything is cropped), but MAYBE they will bring 4K video to the X0D or 7DX line, and I could live with that. Meanwhile, the logical progression with Sony is 4K60 and cleaner 1080p on the A7III/A7RIII successor. I think the next GHx will have to improve their AF, or people will start looking for alternatives. And the next step for Fuji would be adding IBIS and a separate video record button, along with improved lens options.

In the meantime, you might want to trade your 70D up to an 80D with slightly improved AF and DR. My daughter and I were shooting 70D's and found it well worth the cost to upgrade. If you are posting your videos on YouTube there's really not a huge difference in apparent quality, and all the lenses you currently own will still work fine.


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Two ­ Hot ­ Shoes
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Post edited 1 month ago by Two Hot Shoes.
     
Dec 02, 2018 05:03 |  #13

The X-T3 also has face & eye detect AF in video both single and continuous AF modes. It works quite well too & you can adjust the ramp speed and sensitivity. Both card slots are USH-II (very high speed) it seamlessly moves to the second slot with the first one fills up. It records up to DCI (17x9) 4K 60 400Mbs 4:2:0 10 bit internal H265.

The mode dial is on the left and on a hard stop, so to switch to video it just a flick. You can assign the ISO and Shutter Speed to the front and read command dials if you want. I find it easier to use the normal top dials though.

Batteries last about 40mins each but if you fit the grip you get two more giving you about two hours of continuous recording time or fit a dummy battery to power from a bigger one. You can also use USB-c power from a power bank if you want. The max record time is 29:59s as it's classed as a stills camera. So it's easy to pop in a new battery in the down time. Thats what I do. Plugging in an external recorder like an Atomos Ninja V gives you unlimited time (limited by the size of you HDD and power) as well as 4:2:2 10bit. If that's what you want. I enjoying the output from it a lot but it's the camera system I use...

OP: Your list above describes a Red Monstro very nicely BTW including 120 4K & 240 2K with a 40.96×21.60mm sensor not that small, good wish list for a camera, perhaps in 5 - 10 years that spec will pop into small bodies...


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Dec 28, 2018 13:21 |  #14

Thanks for all the ideas!

IF I'm ready to make a costly move, it looks like the Fuji XT-3 at a 1.5 crop comes closest to my criteria. Not sure when I'll be ready. FHD is working for me... for now.

At a 2x crop, the Panasonic GH5s looks great, as does the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4k.

I just came across this roundup of current/new mirrorless for video, if anyone is interested:
https://nofilmschool.c​om …y-Mirrorless-Camera-Guide (external link)


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Croasdail
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Dec 28, 2018 16:52 as a reply to  @ Two Hot Shoes's post |  #15

Just watched your video "Earthship Band - Chromatica Back".... and the video is nice but it seemed the focus was kind of all over the place at times. Does the camera not have touch focus so you can do pulls and pushes? Or were you in manual focus? It seemed to be having issues following the keyboardist's hands. Images look nicely rendered.... just curious about the AF. My A6300 sometimes has this issue and I am never sure what focus mode to use in dark lit situations. Sometimes with some canon glass its smooth as butter.... other times randomly it just gets momentarily lost.... then finds itself again.


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dSLR for 4k Video
FORUMS General Gear Talk Changing Camera Brands 
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