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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 05 Dec 2018 (Wednesday) 12:38
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For Those Who Upgraded from Canon 5DIII to 5DIV

 
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Dec 09, 2018 20:59 |  #31

It is very interesting watching the female hunt for bugs for her young. :)

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Dec 10, 2018 07:54 |  #32

As John Sheehy has pointed out on the boards about the 5D4, I have, for the first time, turned on highlight priority on the 5D4 (never used it on other models). It does seem to help with DR in my type of shooting. I use that in conjunction with auto ISO. I have been very happy with that combination. You could try it for a few days to see if you like the end result where things don't seem to get blown out as fast.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Post edited 2 months ago by John Sheehy. (2 edits in all)
     
Dec 10, 2018 08:35 |  #33

SYS wrote in post #18764954 (external link)
Thanks to your and Jake's assessments on the ISO functionality of 5DIV, I will go back to setting it on Auto. With 5DIII, I only went to Auto when I felt a certain situation worked well with it but in other situations, nope.

I would use auto-ISO in M mode when I had necessary shutter speed minimums, even with the noisiest of cameras; it can't do you wrong noise-wise, because in M mode, your choice of Av and Tv settings determine the noise in any insufficient-light setting; not the ISO.

Now, when you use an AE mode where the camera chooses Av or Tv values without any useful limits imposed by the user, then the camera may choose a shutter speed higher than a user would have chosen, which will result in a higher ISO setting than the user would have chosen.

I have 3 basic modes of operation with Exposure and ISO:


  1. Auto-ISO M with HTP enabled, when I shoot in limited light with shutter speed needs, and the HTP catches some extra highlights if I don't get a chance to dial in negative ISO "EC" (a bias towards a lower ISO).
  2. Av at base ISO, when the aperture is important, and there is so much light that shutter speed is ample.
  3. Sunny f/16 -like manual everything, in consistent lighting, especially when the key of individual shots can vary a lot like large black and large white objects runiing back and forth (think white horses and black horses in sunlight; you don't want the metering to just screw things up for no good reason).


BTW, HTP only increases shadow noise near base ISO (200 with HTP), and even at 200, HTP is not particularly problematic with the 5D4's better DR and low banding noise compared to older cameras like the 5D2 which gave HTP a bad name. HTP has no IQ drawbacks at high ISOs, except when silly cameras limit maximum ISO lower with HTP enabled, which makes no sense at all.



  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Dec 10, 2018 08:44 |  #34

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18764957 (external link)
The 5D3 auto ISO was crippled as was every other implementation until the 5D4, 5DS, 1DX, 7D2, etc. That is where they finally polished off the functionality to allow larger limits, and also EC in manual mode, so that you could push the ISO one way or another to ETTL or ETTR (expose to the left/right).

The 5D4, along with all the other Canon bodies with auto ISO, lock you to ISO 400 if using a flash however. That hasn't changed.

What I did in the 7D without EC (ISO compensation) in auto-ISO M was rely on HTP for an extra stop or RAW highlights. As long as the ISO didn't drop to 200 and I needed to push shadows there, it really wasn't an issue, and it wasn't, when my main telephoto was an f/5.6 and shutter speeds and TCs needed generally kept ISO away from 200.

Now, on the 7D2, I have EC (ISO compensation), but use HTP, anyway, as I see no reason to turn it off unless I want low ISO shadow pushing (less of an issue with the 80D. 5D4 and 1DxII), or ISO 100 exposures that "look right", in OOC JPEGs.




  
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Dec 10, 2018 09:37 |  #35

SYS wrote in post #18765486 (external link)
Has anyone used the Custom Controls to set the AE Lock button (*) to function as instant toggle between "One Shot to AI Servo"? This is a great custom control feature for those action, wildlife and bird photographers.

However, what I'm finding is that, once my finger let go of the AE Locke button, it immediately goes back to what it was instead of changing to another function. In other words, from One Shot mode, when I press the button, it does change to AI Servo, but as soon as I let go of the finger, it changes right back to One Shot mode.

Does anyone know why this is happening and how I can successfully toggle without reverting?

Sys - I forego the one shot - AI servo option and set my * and AF-ON buttons for different AF functions. One for One Shot and the other for AI Servo. I also set up my DOF preview button for alternate set of AI Servo characteristics. Generally to go from one AF point to a larger selection. I find this helpful for wildlife where you have a subject that is in a position where one focus point works better (like partially obstructed) but then the subject moves out into the open. Also great with birds when you have one perched in a difficult position to separate from the background (like in a tree) and then goes into flight. With the 3 custom positions you can se up more combinations than you're likely to need. I don't use exposure lock often but I've moved it to the M-Fn button for occasional access.


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Dec 10, 2018 09:44 as a reply to  @ John Sheehy's post |  #36

Your suggestion was most helpful and I have been shooting this way with great results for a year now. I rarely am at the low ISOs, so I have not had any issues at running this. I am almost always at ISO 12800 to 25600 these days.


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John ­ Sheehy
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Dec 10, 2018 11:15 |  #37

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18768027 (external link)
Your suggestion was most helpful and I have been shooting this way with great results for a year now. I rarely am at the low ISOs, so I have not had any issues at running this. I am almost always at ISO 12800 to 25600 these days.

A nice thing to know is that if auto-ISO M needs ISO to go down to 100 and you have HTP set, only your OOC JPEG is blown at 200HTP. The RAW is the same as if the camera was set to ISO 100 with HTP disable. In fact, ISO 50, ISO 100, ISO 125, ISO 200HTP, and ISO 250HTP all use the same analog gain and original digitization, but the firmware scales the RAW data of 125 and 250HTP about 1.26x in a destructive manner, losing 1/3 stop of DR, and that is the only difference between the RAW data of all of those. 160, 200, 250, 320HTP, 400HTP, and 500 HTP all use the same analog gain and original digitization, and that pattern repeats up the ISO scale.

It's amazing how many people still consider HTP a bad thing at any ISO, but I may be partly to blame for that, because when it first came out, there were Canons with ugly banding noise in base-ISO and low-ISO shadows, and many people were not really using very high ISOs, and tricking themselves by under-exposing at low ISOs to avoid high ones, as if that would improve noise, so it was a bit more problematic than it can be now, but in that historic context, I broadcast the problems with HTP on Usenet and some of the older web forums, and contributed to the early negativity about it.

Every now and then someone tells me not to use it because it is bad, and I wonder if it wasn't me that started that game of telephone, that came back home over 10 years later.

It is a little bit more problematic at very low f-numbers (lower than f/2.8, but especially at f/1.8 and faster) with the pushes that cameras may do there, but I wouldn't worry with a 5D4, 80D, or 1DxII, unless you forgot that you were already using HTP and "under-exposed" too much.




  
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SYS
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Dec 10, 2018 14:45 |  #38

nqjudo wrote in post #18768023 (external link)
Sys - I forego the one shot - AI servo option and set my * and AF-ON buttons for different AF functions. One for One Shot and the other for AI Servo. I also set up my DOF preview button for alternate set of AI Servo characteristics. Generally to go from one AF point to a larger selection. I find this helpful for wildlife where you have a subject that is in a position where one focus point works better (like partially obstructed) but then the subject moves out into the open. Also great with birds when you have one perched in a difficult position to separate from the background (like in a tree) and then goes into flight. With the 3 custom positions you can se up more combinations than you're likely to need. I don't use exposure lock often but I've moved it to the M-Fn button for occasional access.

I've for such a long time used the AF-ON button to meter/focus that that button is permanently reserved for that purpose. The * button to its right is programmed to toggle between One Shot and AI Servo as I find that button to be accessible the fastest. The last remaining button to the far right is programmed to toggle among focus points that I use the most (I disabled the rest of focus points that I never use). I also programmed the button between "Q" and the joystick for exposure compensation which I use often.

My go-to button that I almost always rely on, however, are C1-C3 pre-programmed functions. C1 is programmed for bracket shootings with 9-point focus and 1/2000 SS since I typically hand-hold 3-frame bracket shooting almost always with my 16-30L lens with fantastic IS. I use C2 for bird portraits with spot metering, AI Servo H, Auto ISO and with exp compensation underexposed a bit. C3 then is used for BIF with the same set up as C2 except faster SS and 9-point focus.

Since I rely on C1-C3 almost always as a beginning point, I may end up forgoing the * button programming and use it for some other purpose. For the life of me, I can never seem to find M-Fn button with my finger, so I just ignore that all together.



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Dec 10, 2018 15:25 |  #39

SYS wrote in post #18768195 (external link)
I've for such a long time used the AF-ON button to meter/focus that that button is permanently reserved for that purpose. The * button to its right is programmed to toggle between One Shot and AI Servo as I find that button to be accessible the fastest. The last remaining button to the far right is programmed to toggle among focus points that I use the most (I disabled the rest of focus points that I never use). I also programmed the button between "Q" and the joystick for exposure compensation which I use often.

My go-to button that I almost always rely on, however, are C1-C3 pre-programmed functions. C1 is programmed for bracket shootings with 9-point focus and 1/2000 SS since I typically hand-hold 3-frame bracket shooting almost always with my 16-30L lens with fantastic IS. I use C2 for bird portraits with spot metering, AI Servo H, Auto ISO and with exp compensation underexposed a bit. C3 then is used for BIF with the same set up as C2 except faster SS and 9-point focus.

Since I rely on C1-C3 almost always as a beginning point, I may end up forgoing the * button programming and use it for some other purpose. For the life of me, I can never seem to find M-Fn button with my finger, so I just ignore that all together.

Yeah. There's a lot of ways you can go. For Exposure compensation and AF selection I use set + the front dial for Exposure comp and I use the AF selection button (which I believe is the button you describe as being between the Q and the joystick) for direct AF area selection. Just works better for my brain. Looks like you're getting pretty deep in there already!


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Dec 21, 2018 21:39 |  #40

I love the upgrade from III to IV. Here are a couple of the things I love.

1. Quick Switching Between One Shot and AI Servo

For most of my work (fashion, street), I shoot in One Shot mode. I've configured the DoF button to switch between One Shot and AI Servo, and then only to switch when the button is held (the DoF button is more natural for me). I'd rather have the DoF button set that way than to forget to reset it back to One Shot. In fashion, it's nice to have the model on the move. It's also good to keep her in focus. This is a clever way to switch quickly between the two modes.

NOTE that this capability is also available in the 5DIII. While I'd spent much time with that camera's manual, I never discovered this jewel.

2. Intelligent Point-n-Shoot Mode

When I'm doing street or vacation photography I want to be able to capture the fleeting moment. That's a little difficult to do in Manual mode. Yes, it can be done, but inevitably opportunities are lost; there's always that photo that got away. The 5DIV virtually eliminates that.

On the street or on vacation, I am now shooting Av with Auto ISO. I have ISO set to the full native range (100-32000 [and no, I don't fear high ISO]), and I set shutter speed to auto, with a parameter adjustment to +1. The IV will choose a shutter speed based on 1/(focal length), sort of. It goes a bit slower sometimes. The +1 helps ensure the shutter speed is giving me what I want. Depending on the lens and the subject, aperture may be set to f/1.8 (28mm) or f/5.6 (24-105mm), though it's easy to boost it to something like f/22 if I want to capture a star effect with the Sun. Note that a hard minimum shutter speed may also be chosen.

I love shooting manual in the studio, with lights set manually. I'm a control freak. When I'm on the street, however, and I'm trying to catch what's happening, I don't want my camera to stop me.

I'm really impressed with the 5DIV. It's an impressive and powerful tool. The more I use it and learn about it, the more I love it. I await springtime sports with the IV.


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Dec 21, 2018 23:16 as a reply to  @ mathogre's post |  #41

I've also loved the upgrade from 5D3 to 5D4. I can see the difference in resolution, better DR, and some lesser noise with high ISO. Only issue I ran into was my flash setup....I've debated about whether I should start a thread for this. I have one Canon 600EX-RT, 2 Yungnuo 600EX-RTs, and Yungnuo YN-E3-RT controller. With the 5D3, they all worked flawlessly. When I upgraded to the 5D4, I found out the Canon flash didn't fire while the YN-E3-RT was my controller. I found the work around was that I needed to manually set a channel number and ID. Once I set the same channel and ID for all devices, everything fires with the camera (though if you push flash on the controller, the Canon is delayed).


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Dec 23, 2018 00:16 |  #42

This thread is a good read. Makes me sort of regret not getting the 5D mk iv a couple years ago. I sold two 5D mk ii which I enjoyed. But bought the 5D iii and 5DS because the bodies and controls were near identical. They worked good. But if I could time travel, maybe I would buy the 5D mk iv and 5DS together instead.

It will not matter now, as I have the EOS R, 5DS and plan to add the next "R" version whenever it comes out. I had thought maybe when 5D mk iv prices drop in the next couple years, maybe buying one for an extra.


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Dec 23, 2018 13:04 |  #43

Since I just recently upgraded from 5D III to 5D IV, I was expecting an appreciable difference particularly in image quality between the two after shooting with the new body. In all frankness, I have come to an initial conclusion that I'm not all that impressed with the upgrade. The IV of course definitely offers things that the III doesn't have, touch screen, GPS, wi-fi, better AF, customization settings, etc. Yes, these I appreciate, but the bottom line for me ultimately is image quality more than anything else.

Since I mostly shoot birds, I thought I'd give both bodies a crop test. When I set both bodies to "Auto ISO" under the exact same controlled lighting and exact same SS and aperture, I found to my surprise that 5D IV would consistently up the ISO much higher than 5D III. Because it's very cold outside, I did the test under the constant light indoors (I also wanted to compare the noise between the two bodies), and while the Auto ISO on 5D III goes to ISO2000, 5D IV would go to ISO3200. I'm pretty sure there has to be an explanation for this discrepancy from the engineering point of view.

The resulting, heavily cropped photo results show that, indeed, there's a more detail with the images shot from 5D IV, but for ordinary viewing the difference is hardly noticeable, just slight.

I said my conclusion is "initial" because I need to shoot more with the new body to truly max its capabilities, but as of now, I'm underwhelmed. I think it's worth the upgrade just from all the improvements in it's "function," and I'm going to be content with that. I wouldn't, however, recommend the upgrade for anyone looking for an appreciable improvement in IQ. For that, I'd look elsewhere.



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Dec 23, 2018 13:18 |  #44

SYS wrote in post #18776644 (external link)
Since I just recently upgraded from 5D III to 5D IV, I was expecting an appreciable difference particularly in image quality between the two after shooting with the new body. In all frankness, I have come to an initial conclusion that I'm not all that impressed with the upgrade. The IV of course definitely offers things that the III doesn't have, touch screen, GPS, wi-fi, better AF, customization settings, etc. Yes, these I appreciate, but the bottom line for me ultimately is image quality more than anything else.

Since I mostly shoot birds, I thought I'd give both bodies a crop test. When I set both bodies to "Auto ISO" under the exact same controlled lighting and exact same SS and aperture, I found to my surprise that 5D IV would consistently up the ISO much higher than 5D III. Because it's very cold outside, I did the test under the constant light indoors (I also wanted to compare the noise between the two bodies), and while the Auto ISO on 5D III goes to ISO2000, 5D IV would go to ISO3200. I'm pretty sure there has to be an explanation for this discrepancy from the engineering point of view.

The resulting, heavily cropped photo results show that, indeed, there's a more detail with the images shot from 5D IV, but for ordinary viewing the difference is hardly noticeable, just slight.

I said my conclusion is "initial" because I need to shoot more with the new body to truly max its capabilities, but as of now, I'm underwhelmed. I think it's worth the upgrade just from all the improvements in it's "function," and I'm going to be content with that. I wouldn't, however, recommend the upgrade for anyone looking for an appreciable improvement in IQ. For that, I'd look elsewhere.

I think your observations are perfectly normal. In all honestly at low ISO one would be very hard pressed to see any difference between a lot of 5Dc and 5D4 files. Where you are going to notice a difference with the 5D4 and birds is high ISO (I have some very useable 5D4 shots @ ISO 20,000+) and when you have to manipulate shadows and highlights heavily. The difference in DR is not subtle. You're going to easily recover files on the 5D4 that would have been throw aways on the 5D3. Having those few extra pixels on target help too. That said if you were perfectly happy with the 5D3 and your particular circumstance didn't present a problem for ISO or DR I think you'd indeed see very little difference other than customization/function​ality.


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Dec 23, 2018 13:31 |  #45

I do plan on purchasing 7D III IF and WHEN it does come out (the latest rumor is in the first quarter of the new year, but we'll see). That will be used exclusively for birding and wildlife while 5D IV will then be for my studio, travel, events, etc. However, I have no high expectation of better IQ out of 7D III, either, just functionality.



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