Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
Thread started 06 Oct 2018 (Saturday) 10:56
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

“The full frame look”

 
this thread is locked
moose10101
registered smartass
1,623 posts
Gallery: 5 photos
Likes: 178
Joined May 2010
Location: Maryland, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:06 |  #76

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773078 (external link)
Tom Reichner wrote in post #18773067 (external link)
.

But a sensible photographer will not use the same focal length with a crop sensor than he would with a full frame sensor. . A sensible photographer will frame the image the way he wants it framed regardless of which sensor his camera has. . When an image is framed the same, the larger sensor will produce a shallower depth of field.
.

Will it? Go back and watch the video again. When he shoots the bear at 80mm on the FF to match the 50mm on the crop sensor, it doesn't look nearly as good. In fact, it looks weird as the lights in the background become giant and distracting. Here is the shot. The APS-C is the superior of the two shots with a more shallow DOF with the exact same framing. I get the feeling people are confusing the background blur and bokeh with DOF. Yes, the FF shot is a bit more blurred with nicer bokeh, but it has a deeper DOF, meaning the subject is not as isolated from its background, it looks closer to the tree. On the APS-C shot, the subject looks further away and more isolated from its background and that tree, its a more shallow DOF.

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by BellPhoto in
./showthread.php?p=187​73078&i=i242227949
forum: Camera Vs. Camera

If you stop down the lens on the FF from f/2.0 to f/4 or f/5.6 (which increases its DOF; you understand that, right?), you'll see that those "giant and distracting" lights will look very similar to the ones on the APS-C shot at f/2.0. Since you had to change settings on the FF to increase its DOF to get similar output, it should be obvious that the FF at the original f/2.0 setting had LESS DOF than the APS-C at f/2.0. I have no idea why you think the reverse is true.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
35,895 posts
Gallery: 141 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 4764
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
Post edited 2 months ago by airfrogusmc.
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:12 |  #77

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18773284 (external link)
This exercise is where you see that there is no real difference between the FF and crop bodies,

There's not? There is a big difference if you want your 35mm 1.4 Summilux to give you a wide FoV and not a so called normal FoV. I tend to natural see at a 35mm FoV on a FF 135 format camera so there is a difference for me. I think those that tend to shoot a lot of wide angle is where FF really makes the difference thus the reason I choose to shoot FF.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BellPhoto
Member
39 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Dec 2018
Post edited 2 months ago by BellPhoto. (7 edits in all)
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:39 |  #78

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18773284 (external link)
If you have exactly the same settings on an APS-C and a FF (same focal length, same distance, same aperture), the APS C has less DOF.

Watch the video again. Its explained in very good detail. The APS-C has a more shallow DOF at all the same settings as that video proves and is shown clearly in the photo below. There is hardly any separation at all between the subject and the background in the FF shot. The separation and DOF (even the bokeh) is much better on the APS-C shot. If you would like to do a scientific test of your own to prove otherwise, please make a video and post it here. Thank you.


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BellPhoto
Member
39 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Dec 2018
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:52 |  #79

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18773170 (external link)
Taken with the APS C and booster to gain that FF view...

QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE

What FF look? Are you talking about the background blur? Because in that portrait, that is a very deep DOF, the background looks right on top of her. There is no separation there, that's not a shallow DOF. So if your goal was a DEEP DOF, which is more what FF shots look like, job well done. APS-C sensors are better at showing seperation between the subject and their background, a more shallow DOF.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,789 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3289
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:53 |  #80

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773387 (external link)
Watch the video again. Its explained in very good detail. The APS-C has a more shallow DOF at all the same settings as that video proves and is shown clearly in the photo below. There is hardly any separation at all between the subject and the background in the FF shot. The separation and DOF (even the bokeh) is much better on the APS-C shot. If you would like to do a scientific test of your own to prove otherwise, please make a video and post it here. Thank you.
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by BellPhoto in
./showthread.php?p=187​73387&i=i88465088
forum: Camera Vs. Camera

Once again, you're comparing two images that are not framed the same way.

Our whole point is that we frame images the same way regardless of whether we are using a FF or a crop. . Why do you insist on repeatedly using examples that do not apply to real-life shooting scenarios? . The video you keep referring us to is flawed in that it compares two things that aren't comparable.

It's ok to just admit that you were looking at this issue wrong, and got confused ..... no shame in that.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BellPhoto
Member
39 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Dec 2018
Post edited 2 months ago by BellPhoto. (3 edits in all)
     
Dec 18, 2018 13:59 |  #81

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18773398 (external link)
Once again, you're comparing two images that are not framed the same way.

Our whole point is that we frame images the same way regardless of whether we are using a FF or a crop. . Why do you insist on repeatedly using examples that do not apply to real-life shooting scenarios? . The video you keep referring us to is flawed in that it compares two things that aren't comparable.

It's ok to just admit that you were looking at this issue wrong, and got confused ..... no shame in that.

.

They are framed EXACTLY the same. The only difference is the APS-C is more zoomed in due to its crop factor obviously. Even when he put the 80mm on the FF to match the same focal length, the APS-C still shows a more shallow DOF. Both the chair and the tree appear to be further away from the subject in the APS-C shot, its a more shallow DOF. The bokeh is slightly better on the FF though, that's one thing a 35mm sensor will best an APS-C sensor in more times than not.


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
davesrose
Title Fairy still hasn't visited me!
3,614 posts
Likes: 489
Joined Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:06 |  #82

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773404 (external link)
They are framed EXACTLY the same. The only difference is the APS-C is more zoomed in due to its crop factor obviously. Even when he put the 80mm on the FF to match the same focal length, the APS-C still shows a more shallow DOF. Both the chair and the tree appear to be further away from the subject, its a more shallow DOF. The bokeh is slightly better on the FF though, that's one thing a 35mm sensor will best an APS-C sensor in more times than not.
thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by BellPhoto in
./showthread.php?p=187​73404&i=i237590088
forum: Camera Vs. Camera

You're still ignoring everyone (including the presenter of your linked video). Again, the narrator said that APS-C has a deeper DOF when creating similar field of view. We can calculate DOF with your example: 1.38 inches with the APS-C vs .83 with FF. You can also visually confirm that the FF image has a shallower DOF. Look at the leg of the chair: there's still a form with the APS-C while the FF is quite blurrier.


Canon 5D mk IV
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
smugmug (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BellPhoto
Member
39 posts
Likes: 6
Joined Dec 2018
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:10 |  #83

davesrose wrote in post #18773408 (external link)
You're still ignoring everyone (including the presenter of your linked video). Again, the narrator said that APS-C has a deeper DOF when creating similar field of view. We can calculate DOF with your example: 1.38 inches with the APS-C vs .83 with FF. You can also visually confirm that the FF image has a shallower DOF. Look at the leg of the chair: there's still a form with the APS-C while the FF is quite blurrier.

I see that, but what you are talking about is background blur, not a shallow DOF. Two different things. A lot of people incorrectly confuse the two.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
mike_d
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,243 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 481
Joined Aug 2009
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:11 |  #84

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773404 (external link)
They are framed EXACTLY the same. The only difference is the APS-C is more zoomed in due to its crop factor obviously. Even when he put the 80mm on the FF to match the same focal length, the APS-C still shows a more shallow DOF. Both the chair and the tree appear to be further away from the subject in the APS-C shot, its a more shallow DOF. The bokeh is slightly better on the FF though, that's one thing a 35mm sensor will best an APS-C sensor in more times than not.

Again, that is not what DOF is. DOF is about how much of the scene is in focus, not about how far apart near/far objects appear to be.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,789 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3289
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:11 |  #85

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773404 (external link)
They are framed EXACTLY the same. The only difference is the APS-C is more zoomed in due to its crop factor obviously.

.
Well then they are not framed the same way at all.

"Framed" mens how much is being captured in the photo.

All else being equal, a crop sensor will frame an image tighter because of the narrower field of view. Hence, a crop sensor image and a FF image photographed from the same place with the same focal length will not be framed the same way at all because the crop sensor will only show a portion of the scene that the FF sensor shows.

I think you are struggling with the definition of the word "framed" and how it is used in photographic circles.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
moose10101
registered smartass
1,623 posts
Gallery: 5 photos
Likes: 178
Joined May 2010
Location: Maryland, USA
Post edited 2 months ago by moose10101.
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:11 |  #86

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773387 (external link)
TeamSpeed wrote in post #18773284 (external link)
If you have exactly the same settings on an APS-C and a FF (same focal length, same distance, same aperture), the APS C has less DOF.

Watch the video again. Its explained in very good detail. The APS-C has a more shallow DOF at all the same settings as that video proves and is shown clearly in the photo below. There is hardly any separation at all between the subject and the background in the FF shot. The separation and DOF (even the bokeh) is much better on the APS-C shot. If you would like to do a scientific test of your own to prove otherwise, please make a video and post it here. Thank you.

thumbnail
Hosted photo: posted by BellPhoto in
./showthread.php?p=187​73387&i=i88465088
forum: Camera Vs. Camera

Those two images are obviously NOT framed the same. They're taken from the same POSITION, but by using the same focal length with both cameras, you end up with completely different photos.

The comparison that the rest of us are making is between two photos that are taken from the same position, and also result in approximately the same field of view. You're not doing that, i.e. you're not talking about the same thing the rest of us are discussing.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
moose10101
registered smartass
1,623 posts
Gallery: 5 photos
Likes: 178
Joined May 2010
Location: Maryland, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:14 |  #87

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773396 (external link)
TeamSpeed wrote in post #18773170 (external link)
Taken with the APS C and booster to gain that FF view...

QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE
QUOTED IMAGE

What FF look? Are you talking about the background blur? Because in that portrait, that is a very deep DOF, the background looks right on top of her. There is no separation there, that's not a shallow DOF. So if your goal was a DEEP DOF, which is more what FF shots look like, job well done. APS-C sensors are better at showing seperation between the subject and their background, a more shallow DOF.

I'm becoming convinced that you don't know the difference between DOF and subject-to-background distance.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
moose10101
registered smartass
1,623 posts
Gallery: 5 photos
Likes: 178
Joined May 2010
Location: Maryland, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:18 |  #88

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773411 (external link)
I see that, but what you are talking about is background blur, not a shallow DOF. Two different things. A lot of people incorrectly confuse the two.

Shallow DOF causes background blur. The shallower the DOF, the more blurry a particular background object will be.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
davesrose
Title Fairy still hasn't visited me!
3,614 posts
Likes: 489
Joined Apr 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Post edited 2 months ago by davesrose.
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:18 |  #89

BellPhoto wrote in post #18773411 (external link)
I see that, but what you are talking about is background blur, not a shallow DOF. Two different things. A lot of people incorrectly confuse the two.

No, more background blur means the DOF is also shallower (the farthest plane of acceptable focus is not as far). The quoted calculations I gave are the apparent acceptable range of sharpness while viewing a 8x10 photo at 25cm. Your video (which is a good channel for learning cinematography and film-making) does cover circle of confusion (and mentions it's different with cinema cameras). Your initial source even quite clearly says APS-C has a deeper DOF when having similar field of view.

Depth of Field (external link)


Canon 5D mk IV
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
smugmug (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,789 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3289
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Dec 18, 2018 14:20 |  #90

moose10101 wrote in post #18773420 (external link)
I'm becoming convinced that you don't know the difference between DOF and subject-to-background distance.

.
There is a lot that he doesn't know, and is confused about. . But that's ok - most of us have been there before.

If he hangs out here on POTN for a while, he will start to learn and improve. . There are so many folks here that really know what they are talking about and who are eager to help those who are starting out.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

7,127 views & 138 likes for this thread
“The full frame look”
FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is PattiLynnPhoto
830 guests, 395 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.