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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 10 Oct 2018 (Wednesday) 10:05
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-= Canon EOS R owners unite! Post photos and discuss.

 
John ­ Sheehy
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Dec 19, 2018 06:48 |  #1651

Choderboy wrote in post #18773892 (external link)
Rolling shutter is not a great feature for action.
3 fps is not the only option for servo, it's just the headline grabbing low number.

It isn't bad, if the display uses the same timing. That's why TV back in PAL/NTSC days often had very fluid motion not possible in converted film movies; the TV was updated exactly as the videotube captured it, 31 thousand lines per second, interlaced, at 50/60 fields per second. A problem occurs when you use a slow rolling shutter and then try to display the capture as a series of solid time-slices; you are showing what happened over time down the frame as if it happened all at the same time.

We are in a strange era of video, where we watch a lot of damaged timing. A VCR tape or DVD converted to progressive solid frames is a tragedy! Same for 24p movies converted to 30i. Don't throw away the originals; future monitors may be able to play back the lines or progressive frames in the order and timing that they were intended to be shown at. Sometime new technology is not ready to handle old technology very well.




  
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CyberDyneSystems
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Dec 19, 2018 12:07 |  #1652

aladyforty wrote in post #18773802 (external link)
I watched that video last night and was very surprised at his findings on the D850 since its meant to have AWESOME dynamic range. To be fair he did not say it could not have been camera shake or his fault but I believe he is right, you cant go by the DXO and charts from not so much "real world tests" You have to take a camera out and shoot the way YOU shoot and weigh up the pros and cons. Im looking forward to see how he find the Fuji next :-D That said his finding for the canon sensor on the 5d4 would point to the R being as good or better


At some point in the video, he does say "the 5D4 BLOWS THE D850 OUT OF THE WATER"...

However, if we actually go on to watch the entire video, what he really ends up saying, hyperbole aside, are two things;

- The Nikon with it's aa filter and MP advantage out resolves the 5D4 to a significant and visible degree. Better detail all around.

- The Nikon failed in the one DR test image due to glass. He says it was the Nikon lens that lost the details he was looking for. He then goes on to say that Canon glass is better all around, and that specifically the Canon 24-70 is better at 24mm than the Nikon is. IMHO This had nothing to do with the D850 even if he got focus and camera shake spot on. (which I am perfectly happy to give the benefit of the doubt)

Point is, his claims about the 5D4 vs. D850 appear to contradict his own findings and theories.

Given all that, I am not at all sure what we should make of this video. At best, I would assume that a Nikon fanboi, and D850 shooter will walk away happy convinced they have the right camera, and a Canon fanboi and Mk4 shooter will do the same.


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nqjudo
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Dec 19, 2018 12:38 |  #1653

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18774086 (external link)
At some point in the video, he does say "the 5D4 BLOWS THE D850 OUT OF THE WATER"...

However, if we actually go on to watch the entire video, what he really ends up saying, hyperbole aside, are two things;

- The Nikon with it's aa filter and MP advantage out resolves the 5D4 to a significant and visible degree. Better detail all around.

- The Nikon failed in the one DR test image due to glass. He says it was the Nikon lens that lost the details he was looking for. He then goes on to say that Canon glass is better all around, and that specifically the Canon 24-70 is better at 24mm than the Nikon is. IMHO This had nothing to do with the D850 even if he got focus and camera shake spot on. (which I am perfectly happy to give the benefit of the doubt)

Point is, his claims about the 5D4 vs. D850 appear to contradict his own findings and theories.

Given all that, I am not at all sure what we should make of this video. At best, I would assume that a Nikon fanboi, and D850 shooter will walk away happy convinced they have the right camera, and a Canon fanboi and Mk4 shooter will do the same.

I think the only thing he is going to prove with this series is that every camera is capable of taking fantastic shots and every photographer is going to respond differently to different gear. I only gave it a glance but I noticed he grabbed the same crop from each image for the print test and it seemed pretty small. He doesn't talk about the technical details of the print but I wonder if there was some upscaling going on there that may have give the D850 an advantage as the crop would have had more pixels to begin with. I may be mistaken but the whole affair seemed pretty anecdotal.


No photographer is as good as the simplest camera. - Edward Steichen.

  
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nardes
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Post edited 2 months ago by nardes.
     
Dec 19, 2018 14:51 |  #1654

patrick j wrote in post #18773825 (external link)
So here's a possibly dumb question - if you can grab such a sharp image from a video clip, couldn't this camera be used to shoot sports or wildlife with video and then have the images extracted from the video? I mean, it can shoot sports and wildlife, but the complaint was a slow frame rate (3 fps) in Servo mode, and you need more than that for sports. I can think of a problem or two, namely, you are going to eat up memory like crazy if you are shooting video of an entire sporting event in small bursts.

In addition to some of the other replies, Astrophotography can appear to be a bit of a black art, but amateur astronomers today have a wonderful array of software, equipment and techniques that can reveal astonishing details in the Moon and Planets, but these techniques don’t really lend themselves well to more earthly subjects.:-)

The technique of recording movie files in astrophotography for the Moon and Planets is based on a technique called “Lucky Seeing”.

For the Moon and Planets, you are shooting through the Earth’s turbulent atmosphere and for fleeting moments, you may encounter stable conditions where the fine detail on the Moon or Planets are sharp, whereas the default condition is that they tend to be soft or smeared by the air currents.

By recording a movie with say 3,000 frames, you hope that maybe 200 or 300 frames were recorded during those fleeting moments of good seeing conditions in various segments of the movie file. Specialised processing software can analyse the 3,000 frames and grade them on Image Quality, so you can reject the smeared ones and only select the better frames for Aligning and Stacking based on a Quality Level Setting.

This technique works where the subject is relatively still and stable in the frame, with no movement against a fixed background.

So, I guess the reasons you might not use this approach for moving wildlife or sports might be:

  • The astrophotography SW that grades the IQ of each frame and then Aligns and Stacks them will not work where the subject both changes shape and changes position against a potentially moving background.
  • Compared to a single Raw stills frame, a single frame grabbed from a movie file is already processed and does not contain the same rich data.
  • From a workflow perspective, it is impractical to manually scrub through the timeline of a movie and attempt to pick the best shots(s) by eye. For me at least!;-)a
  • Arguably, an experienced photographer will likely be able to predict the “best” moment of capture and shoot at say 10 fps to get the shot rather than try to find the best frame in a reduced quality movie file.

Apologies for the somewhat lengthy reply, it is a big topic.:-)

Cheers

Dennis



  
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lijoec
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Dec 19, 2018 16:20 |  #1655

nqjudo wrote in post #18774109 (external link)
I think the only thing he is going to prove with this series is that every camera is capable of taking fantastic shots and every photographer is going to respond differently to different gear. I only gave it a glance but I noticed he grabbed the same crop from each image for the print test and it seemed pretty small. He doesn't talk about the technical details of the print but I wonder if there was some upscaling going on there that may have give the D850 an advantage as the crop would have had more pixels to begin with. I may be mistaken but the whole affair seemed pretty anecdotal.

pretty much, what I was thinking. Each system has goods and bads, some higher on the charts some lower. Different glass, weather conditions and such all change the outcomes. It's up to the photog to get the shot!

Personaly I like canon just because it's all I ever shot, so i'm comfortable with it . so if other cameras out shine mine in charts mine will give me better results!
I started looking at the R because I wanted a full frame camera to add to the 80D in the tool box. But I have to admit this one is very attractive. The mirrorless with the viewfinder, the silent mode, custom settingsw and the flip screen all tweek my interest. Now it's time to start saving for this bad boy.

Now let's see some more R Images!


Cheers,
Joe
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nardes
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Post edited 2 months ago by nardes.
     
Dec 19, 2018 18:09 |  #1656

The Ladies Choir having fun as part of the night-time annual Christmas Parade in Brisbane.:-)

Difficult shooting conditions with the crowds pushing and jostling for position - the flippy screen came in handy for an overhead, arms outstretched shot.

Cheers

Dennis.


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Dec 19, 2018 18:15 |  #1657

nardes wrote in post #18774304 (external link)
The Ladies Choir having fun as part of the night-time annual Christmas Parade in Brisbane.:-)

Difficult shooting conditions with the crowds pushing and jostling for position - the flippy screen came in handy for an overhead, arms outstretched shot.

Cheers

Dennis.
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Pretty good for 1/60 ... did you use flash or just what light was there?


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nardes
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Post edited 2 months ago by nardes.
     
Dec 19, 2018 18:42 |  #1658

mdvaden wrote in post #18774308 (external link)
Pretty good for 1/60 ... did you use flash or just what light was there?

I had a Canon Speedlite 600EX mounted on the hot shoe set to ETTL mode.

Here I managed to catch this rather tall, elegant lady gazing into camera as she swooped by on wheeled scaffolding being pushed by a bunch of handsome princes off camera.:-)

I don't often shoot these live, somewhat fleeting events and it was a tough gig, although I guess the more you do, the easier it gets as you get to understand the best positions, angles, etc.:-D

Cheers

Dennis


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patrick ­ j
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Dec 19, 2018 19:41 |  #1659

nardes wrote in post #18774181 (external link)
By recording a movie with say 3,000 frames, you hope that maybe 200 or 300 frames were recorded during those fleeting moments of good seeing conditions in various segments of the movie file. Specialised processing software can analyse the 3,000 frames and grade them on Image Quality, so you can reject the smeared ones and only select the better frames for Aligning and Stacking based on a Quality Level Setting.

This technique works where the subject is relatively still and stable in the frame, with no movement against a fixed background.

So, I guess the reasons you might not use this approach for moving wildlife or sports might be:
  • The astrophotography SW that grades the IQ of each frame and then Aligns and Stacks them will not work where the subject both changes shape and changes position against a potentially moving background.
  • Compared to a single Raw stills frame, a single frame grabbed from a movie file is already processed and does not contain the same rich data.
  • From a workflow perspective, it is impractical to manually scrub through the timeline of a movie and attempt to pick the best shots(s) by eye. For me at least!;-)a
  • Arguably, an experienced photographer will likely be able to predict the “best” moment of capture and shoot at say 10 fps to get the shot rather than try to find the best frame in a reduced quality movie file.

Apologies for the somewhat lengthy reply, it is a big topic.:-)

Cheers

Dennis

Thanks for the replies everyone. I figured I didn't know something, or several somethings. The workflow thing above I figured would be one issue, the technical stuff I wasn't aware of.


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Dec 19, 2018 20:24 |  #1660

lijoec wrote in post #18774231 (external link)
pretty much, what I was thinking. Each system has goods and bads, some higher on the charts some lower. Different glass, weather conditions and such all change the outcomes. It's up to the photog to get the shot!

Personaly I like canon just because it's all I ever shot, so i'm comfortable with it . so if other cameras out shine mine in charts mine will give me better results!
I started looking at the R because I wanted a full frame camera to add to the 80D in the tool box. But I have to admit this one is very attractive. The mirrorless with the viewfinder, the silent mode, custom settingsw and the flip screen all tweek my interest. Now it's time to start saving for this bad boy.

Now let's see some more R Images!

Its a fun camera to shoot Joe.. Af is quite good although I wish I could have the small group of points with servo.. I was always a centre spot guy..

I enjoy it ....

I don't think a guy could go wrong if you shoot a wide variety of stuff and like to dabble in video...

BUT you will have to listen to the negativity... I dont think I have ever seen anything like the hate people bestow on the lonely little R.

For most of the year I do 10k a day walking and I found myself leaving the camera at home a bunch... so the smaller package is welcome on long walks.


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Dec 19, 2018 22:14 |  #1661

I am happy with it.. I am happy with my 550d, my 5d2, 5d3 and recently have fallen in love with my AE-1, srt101, sp500 i was given a few months ago.. More so that they work flawlessly..


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Dec 19, 2018 22:18 |  #1662

Pondrader wrote in post #18774353 (external link)
Its a fun camera to shoot Joe.. Af is quite good although I wish I could have the small group of points with servo.. I was always a centre spot guy..

I enjoy it ....

I don't think a guy could go wrong if you shoot a wide variety of stuff and like to dabble in video...

BUT you will have to listen to the negativity... I dont think I have ever seen anything like the hate people bestow on the lonely little R.

For most of the year I do 10k a day walking and I found myself leaving the camera at home a bunch... so the smaller package is welcome on long walks.
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to be honest I have not seen a lot of hate for the R, pretty much do see a lot of hate for canon as a brand and unsure why. I do think the Nikon Z and canon R got some unfavourable press, the only thing they deserved a slap for was the one card slot for the price they charge. Other than that Im not sure people have reason to spew hate on either of them, if you dont like them buy something else I say. Its not like theres not a heap of new camera gear been released over the last few months


5D3 7D2 Fuji X100 Fuji X10 canon glass and the odd shot with other brands
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Dec 20, 2018 00:30 |  #1663

Pondrader wrote in post #18773895 (external link)
This fella said it way better than I ever could ....

One point he conveys relates to why I've written more than once that the JPGs from the EOS R are so good when shots are taken right, that the Wifi transfer to a mobile device is a save option for backup in case of the rare one-in-ten year card malfunction.

The point about working around disadvantages was worth interjecting because every brand has disadvantages. In many ways it boils down to if the shoe fits wear it, and if the shoe is comfortable all the better.


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Post edited 2 months ago by DigitalTuned. (2 edits in all)
     
Dec 20, 2018 01:49 |  #1664

I had the X1.4 extender but i dont remember if i was shooting in crop mode

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Dec 20, 2018 04:33 |  #1665

Another from the Brisbane City Centre Xmas Parade. I'm impressed with the crop-ability at relatively high ISO. I was able to crop fairly tightly to remove arms, iPhones and other peripheral distractions that protruded into the scene.:-)

Cheers

Dennis


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