Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 04 Jan 2019 (Friday) 03:38
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Focus Points

 
Tom ­ Reichner
"I am a little creepy"
Avatar
12,727 posts
Gallery: 142 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 3269
Joined Dec 2008
Location: Omak, in north-central Washington state, USA
     
Jan 09, 2019 16:08 |  #31

TheLaird wrote in post #18784112 (external link)
.
How important are focus points to you?
.

.
Extremely important.

Let me ask you, if someone is running right at you, and you want them way off center - on the right side of the frame, then how would you maintain focus precisely on them as they move toward you, without using an off-center focus point?

Most of us don't want our subjects in the center of the picture. . Most often, that is not aesthetically ideal. . So to get your subject away from the center and still get it perfectly sharp, you pretty much need to utilize the different focus points, especially if your subject is moving as you shoot.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
     
Jan 09, 2019 21:41 |  #32

Me too. I use all 3 modes. Single, expansion and zone. I like to mix it up and take advantage of what I paid for. Besides it is fun to experiment.


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
     
Jan 10, 2019 03:49 |  #33

Tom Reichner wrote in post #18788079 (external link)
.
Extremely important.

Let me ask you, if someone is running right at you, and you want them way off center - on the right side of the frame, then how would you maintain focus precisely on them as they move toward you, without using an off-center focus point?

Most of us don't want our subjects in the center of the picture. . Most often, that is not aesthetically ideal. . So to get your subject away from the center and still get it perfectly sharp, you pretty much need to utilize the different focus points, especially if your subject is moving as you shoot.

.

Some of my wildlife photographers friends use also one another technique based on the overhigh resolution of their sensor : they sometime use the center focus point (or the center bunch of focus point) and take photo which are to be recomposed by cropping in post-prod related to their effective needed resolution. Technique I can not use with my 8MP EOS 20D.


"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
Post edited 6 days ago by Pictoraider. (4 edits in all)
     
Jan 10, 2019 04:42 |  #34

digital paradise wrote in post #18787963 (external link)
Use the histogram. Shooting events I'd use white purses, shirts, sweaters and even table cloths if available. You may want to use RGB mode to be more precise because the reds will clip more and won't show up in the normal mode.

https://neilvn.com …am-to-determine-exposure/ (external link)

In neilvn.com's article, the author is not aware that the main subject of his two flash Canon RAW is quite underexposed while the main subject of his second flash Nikon RAW is correctly exposed :
as everyone can notice, the very lowlights pike excepted, all other pikes are far more pushed to the right on the flash nikon RAW.
It's the only and true reason why Neil got optimal result of the scene with his Nikon camera.
Histogram may be used to take flash photo but not as related by Neil. It's definitely a confusing tutorial.

Unless you shoot in jpeg format and not in RAW format, the RVB histogram is of no use in case the red channel clips...or not.
The RVB histogram only states about the red tones of the jpeg picture the inner camera software produce for LCD viewing. And does not state about RAW exposure.
The camera metering is based on the 18% neutral grey and only the 18% neutral grey. It does not assume anything about colors.
So far, it's recommended to refer to the brightness histogram (of monochrome jpeg, it' better when possible) displayed on the rear LCD :
if the 18% grey pike is located in the middle, you can be sure that camera has correctly exposed for jpeg files. You are not sure for anything else. Certainly not for existing red tones in RAW file.
This has been said, when taking flash photo in RAW format, the exposure has to benefit of around +1EV more than determined 18% neutral grey correct exposure (which is appropriate for flash photo taken on film and/or in jpeg format).


"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
Post edited 6 days ago by digital paradise.
     
Jan 10, 2019 05:19 |  #35

To me it just looks the WB is different. I have used that method for years for quick paced environments and it has always worked. For me is the key is not blowing out the whites with the flash. I did attend a flash studio workshop once and they showed us this method for people who didn't have a flash meter. They held up a white sheet of paper in front of the subjects face and exposed for it. It didn't matter which camera brand was used as long as right spike was close to the right wall and didn't touch it.

As for the RGB histogram I just picked that up in conversations around here and at other sites. He really didn't talk about ambient light so I'm not sure if the flash overpowered it in these examples but I suspect it did. While this method may not be perfect I think it is a good tool. It gives you something to work with when you have no time to mess around. I also have a flash meter for precise exposures. Not involving the ambient when it comes to "subject" flash exposure if you get the whites right the rest falls into place. No offence but I think I'll stick with Neil :-)


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
35,041 posts
Gallery: 97 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 4748
Joined May 2002
Location: Northern Indiana
Post edited 6 days ago by TeamSpeed.
     
Jan 10, 2019 06:40 |  #36

Pictoraider wrote in post #18788490 (external link)
Some of my wildlife photographers friends use also one another technique based on the overhigh resolution of their sensor : they sometime use the center focus point (or the center bunch of focus point) and take photo which are to be recomposed by cropping in post-prod related to their effective needed resolution. Technique I can not use with my 8MP EOS 20D.

That is how I shoot too since most cameras have their best AF points in the center and they become increasingly less reliable the farther out to the edges. That has changed quite a bit over the past few years however, but in the past, you could only really count on the inner groups.

If you have the resolution, then use the AF points that are known to be the most reliable, then crop for composition later. I shoot sports, wildlife, and even portraits this way many times.

The nice thing is that today's tools lend quite a bit of versatility to how one wants to shoot with little detriment, so compose in camera and try to use outer AF points if you have them, otherwise use the best AF points and crop later.


Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
     
Jan 10, 2019 06:49 |  #37

In the forums I had read about how unreliable the 7D outer points were. I tested that out and I found they did quite well. The 7D didn't have nearly as many but never hesitated to use them. I'm always moving the AF point around with my 7D2 and 5D4.

Taken with a 7D


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TeamSpeed
01010100 01010011
Avatar
35,041 posts
Gallery: 97 photos
Best ofs: 2
Likes: 4748
Joined May 2002
Location: Northern Indiana
Post edited 6 days ago by TeamSpeed. (11 edits in all)
     
Jan 10, 2019 06:56 |  #38

They don't work as well with moving, at least not fast, targets... Also, lighting plays a big factor too, given the types of phase detect AF points that exist. For one 7D success with outer AF points, I can show you 5 that didn't shooting various sports, etc in AI Servo. ;)

With a 30Mpx+ sensor, you have latitude to crop after the fact and in some cases you can crop different images from one image. Newer cameras with their cross type sensors work better than the olden days though. Sometimes you don't even have the spread of AF points to get what you want, like the 6D2.

With mirrorless, you have almost the entire sensor to select an AF point and they all operate the same, so it will become easier to select an exact AF point and get the composition you want out of the camera. The M50 has been a dream in that regard, no matter where the eyeball is of the subject I am shooting, I can place an AF point there. :) The need for focus and recompose, or crop later for composition, is gone with the Canon mirrorless.


IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Church-and-Family/The-Kids/i-Kn5GcLr/0/69afee73/X2/IMG_0541-X2.jpg

Past Equipment | My Personal Gallery (external link) My Business Gallery (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
     
Jan 10, 2019 07:12 |  #39

Yes that was a still and I never used outers for tracking. I started to experiment using more AF points when I got my 7D2. I really like using Zone AF with AI Servo.

I'm not going to get the R but I'm looking forward to the other next gen ML bodies based on what you said. Too bad about the mount. I'm not a big adapter fan but I won't have the cash to replace all my lenses.


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
     
Jan 12, 2019 13:20 |  #40

Before talking about Neilvn.com tutorial, i woulds like to remind of the insighful e-TTL II test by Wilt on previous page 2 of this thread : recomposing is not neutral !

Wilt did not carry what happens when focus on the sofa with objects of different brightness positioned on the foreground : ambient light exposure determined and locked when half-pressing the shutter button would be different, ratio ambient/flash decided and set by e-TTL II would vary, flash output would vary as Will demonstrated due to presence or absence of object on the foreground...


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
Post edited 4 days ago by Pictoraider. (6 edits in all)
     
Jan 12, 2019 13:44 |  #41

About RGB histogram, this RGB histogram states about the jpeg "in the box" the camera inner siftware woul produce : not about the result user would provide via his personnal RAW processing...

Below are two possible jpeg of one same .EOS 300D 9914.CRW Raw file as viewed on the rear control LCD screen of the camera



image 1/ the peg produced "in the box" in Auto WB & Standard picture style


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.



image 2/ the jpeg produced "in the box" in Auto WB & Landscape picture style

HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.

:

The two red channel histograms differ a lot : by more than +1EV...
Both red channel histograms do show relevant/serviceable hightlight clipping at f5,6 & 1/100e s at 100 ISO,
...while brightness histogram of jpeg of this 9914.CRW Raw file do not.

"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
Post edited 4 days ago by Pictoraider. (2 edits in all)
     
Jan 12, 2019 14:18 |  #42

Both red channel histograms do show relevant/serviceable hightlight clipping at f5,6 & 1/100e s at 100 ISO,
...while brightness histogram of jpeg of this 9914.CRW Raw file do not.

In reality, there is no clipping at all (of relevant/serviceable highlight) : when opened in Lightroom, the 9914.CRW histogram is at distance of the right.
The scene exposure could have been majored by +1/2EV to +2/3EV without clipping (of relevant/serviceable highlight).


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pictoraider
Member
172 posts
Likes: 255
Joined May 2016
Location: Paris (FRANCE)
Post edited 4 days ago by Pictoraider.
     
Jan 12, 2019 14:32 |  #43

digital paradise wrote in post #18788525 (external link)
To me it just looks the WB is different. I have used that method for years for quick paced environments and it has always worked. For me is the key is not blowing out the whites with the flash. I did attend a flash studio workshop once and they showed us this method for people who didn't have a flash meter. They held up a white sheet of paper in front of the subjects face and exposed for it. It didn't matter which camera brand was used as long as right spike was close to the right wall and didn't touch it.

The key is effectively not blowwing out the whites, either with ambient light, flash light or mixed ambient-flash light but...
There is a but...

Below are four pictures of same objects of different brightness taken at different days and at different hours.
Can you tell which picture is correctly exposed and which is underexposed ;
in case of underexposure, can you tell where the whiter object pike should theorically be positioned on the histogram ?

PS : the white pillow is around 80-90% reflective objet compared to a 18% neutral grey card.


HOSTED PHOTO
please log in to view hosted photos in full size.


"Constructive criticism always appreciated."

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
     
Jan 12, 2019 15:30 |  #44

No I can't and again working in a hectic environment I never cared. As long as I didn't blow out the highlights. Neil did state that Canon had to be pulled back further than Nikon which I payed attention to and tried to achieve. Somewhere in examples Band C. This is just tool to assist me. I couldn't take 5 or 6 shots until it was perfect. I tried to bring in as much ambient as could so the flash didn't nuke the subjects and applied FEC as required. At times close enough was good enough and I corrected it in post. I appreciate your input but I'm still not changing anything. I've never had a dissatisfied customer.


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
digital ­ paradise
How do I change this?
Avatar
14,236 posts
Likes: 7274
Joined Oct 2009
     
Jan 12, 2019 15:54 |  #45

When I had the time flash was on manual, umbrella and I'd use a meter. We also shot make a shift photo booth. No booth, just a backdrop. I'd mark the floor with tape and told the guests not to step past it so the flash wouldn't nuke them. They were all partying by that time of night. Flash far enough way so everyone was lit evenly (falloff).


Image Editing OK

Website (external link) ~ Buy/Sell Feedback

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

1,388 views & 7 likes for this thread
Focus Points
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is dandare
782 guests, 391 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.