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Thread started 12 Mar 2020 (Thursday) 15:31
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Coronavirus General Discussion (no politics, no flamewars!)

 
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Capn ­ Jack
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Post edited 10 months ago by Capn Jack.
     
Apr 18, 2020 17:17 |  #2296

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048899 (external link)
.
I appreciate that you took the time to explain how specialization works.
.

.
But, I don't have a responsibility to society, nor to anyone else. . I have a responsibility to myself, to enable myself to get the things that I want that will provide a more enjoyable life.

When I want the things that other people ("society") has made, then I can barter with society and give things to others that they want. . They in turn pay me money that I can use to get the things that I want. . I am not responsible to others - I merely barter with them to get what I want. . My responsibility is to myself.

Each of us is responsible to ourselves, and it is up to us to barter in a way that gets us what we want. . Producing things that others needs is not a duty or a responsibility. . It is simply what we do when we want to get stuff that other people have produced. . It is borne of a desire to get things for one's self, not out of a debt that we have to help support others.

When I do things that help the less fortunate, or those in need, I do so out of choice. . I am free to help them, or not to help them. . I have no duty or responsibility to help others. . I can do so, but it is up to me if I do or not. . Helping others is something that should always be done from a free will; no one should ever be put in a position where they are forced, or expected, to help others.

.

How about, for example, spreading a noxious weed for one's own pleasure? For example, Dipsacus fullonum? One may get pleasure from the teasel flowers, yet another person has had their pleasures deprived since that deer tend not to eat that plant, and move away from the area where that plant has taken over, so it is more difficult to shoot deer with their Canon?




  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited 10 months ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Apr 18, 2020 17:26 |  #2297

.
Stu!

It's good to hear from you! . It's been a while. . Sorry it took so long to see your PMs ..... I was away for a few weeks and don't like to use my phone for browsing the internet, so I just saw your PMs for the first tie a few days ago when I got back home.

.

sapearl wrote in post #19048905 (external link)
..... but am I hearing you correctly that you don't care if your intentional actions might threaten the health and/or life of those around you because it is inconvenient and prevents you from enjoying yourself?

It is each person's responsibility to protect themselves, to provide for themselves, and to keep themselves safe. . It is not my responsibility to protect others, or to keep them safe from anything, nor to help provide for them. . I may choose to do these things, but it needs to be my choice whether to do it or not.

Others choose what level of risk they put themselves at. . It is up to them, not up to me or anybody else, to keep them safe from the virus.

.

sapearl wrote in post #19048905 (external link)
You've always been very generous and helpful to others on this forum so I have a hard time believing that's how you really feel.

Perhaps I misunderstood something?

When I am helpful to others, it is because I choose to do so. I have no responsibility to do so. It sure as hell is not my "duty" to help others. I do it out of free choice. I am free to give my time or other resources to others ..... and I should be just as free to never give anything to others. It should be my choice, and mine alone, for any and all situations that I ever encounter in life.

For anyone to ever insinuate that we are "supposed to" help others, or that we have a duty to do so, is just all wrong.

There are many occasions when I want to help others by giving of my time or knowledge or empathy or whatever the occasion calls for. I am glad to do so because I do so out of my own free will, never out of any feeling that I "ought to" do it.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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John ­ Sheehy
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Apr 18, 2020 17:27 |  #2298

davesrose wrote in post #19047807 (external link)
The main concern about coronavirus, and why medical authorities are recommending social distancing, is slowing the virus so that hospitals and medical care facilities are not overwhelmed with patients. One surprise about the virus was that hospitals have been needing to provide respiratory care to age groups considered "low risk". It then gets to be a scenario of denying ventilators to older or "high risk" patients.

I doubt that age is a risk factor, independently, at least until the the mid-80s or even later. A 80-year old person can have good metabolic health and a strong immune system, but at least in countries like the US, most people are not healthy. Only 12% of adult Americans don't have one of the factors associated with metabolic syndrome (low HDL cholesterol, high triglycerides, obesity, hypertension, and high blood sugar).

Age correlates with deteriorating metabolic health and immune system function. People generally get worse as they get older, because they refuse to improve themselves, and they see their overworked doctors (who gets their continuing ed from pharma reps) for 10 minutes to get prescriptions.




  
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Apr 18, 2020 17:28 |  #2299

I'm not sure about that. Like it or not we live in a society of rules. Sometimes like in this epidemic we have to sacrifice a few things or a while. Should Jeffrey Dahmer and others been allowed to continue to do what made them feel good? I know my example is pretty extreme but if we are going to allow total freedom then they would would have rights to it as well.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited 10 months ago by Tom Reichner. (4 edits in all)
     
Apr 18, 2020 17:33 |  #2300

Capn Jack wrote in post #19048906 (external link)
How about, for example, spreading a noxious weed for one's own pleasure? For example, Dipsacus fullonum? One may get pleasure from the teasel flowers, yet another person has had their pleasures deprived since that deer tend not to eat that plant, and move away from the area where that plant has taken over, so it is more difficult to shoot deer with their Canon?

.
Actually, deer DO eat teasel - I have photos that prove so.

It is actually the opposite of what you say - deer love the non-native teasel plants for both the food and cover they provide. . Deer absolutely love the teasel! . I have, literally, hundreds of photos of deer in thick patches of teasel. . They often ignore the surrounding vegetation in lieu of the teasel.

When the government kills the teasel off, deer leave the area and do not return, because the native plants that replace the teasel do not have a high enough food or cover value to the deer or most other wildlife.

At one place I frequent, the government made a lot of people unhappy when they killed off a huge teasel patch. . People used to visit the teasel patch to see the deer and pheasants, but when it was killed off, the area became devoid of wildlife. . Many people were deprived of much enjoyment ...... and the deer and pheasants and songbirds were deprived of high quality food and cover.

But I (and you) digress, as this is quite off topic.

.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Tronhard
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Apr 18, 2020 17:40 |  #2301

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048899 (external link)
.
I appreciate that you took the time to explain how specialization works.
.

.
But, I don't have a responsibility to society, nor to anyone else. . I have a responsibility to myself, to enable myself to get the things that I want that will provide a more enjoyable life.

When I want the things that other people ("society") has made, then I can barter with society and give things to others that they want. . They in turn pay me money that I can use to get the things that I want. . I am not responsible to others - I merely barter with them to get what I want. . My responsibility is to myself.

Each of us is responsible to ourselves, and it is up to us to barter in a way that gets us what we want. . Producing things that others needs is not a duty or a responsibility. . It is simply what we do when we want to get stuff that other people have produced. . It is borne of a desire to get things for one's self, not out of a debt that we have to help support others.

When I do things that help the less fortunate, or those in need, I do so out of choice. . I am free to help them, or not to help them. . I have no duty or responsibility to help others. . I can do so, but it is up to me if I do or not. . Helping others is something that should always be done from a free will; no one should ever be put in a position where they are forced, or expected, to help others.

.

I was surprised and saddened to read that you would be prepared to sacrifice even loved ones for the sake of the principle of your individual freedom of choice. Everything I have read from you indicates a thoughtful, balanced and responsible person. Psychologists will tell us that we reject what we fear, so perhaps you could explain exactly what you fear if you are not able to live life as you define it.


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Trevor

  
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Tronhard
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Apr 18, 2020 17:49 |  #2302

Pippan wrote in post #19048895 (external link)
Yes! The world will be a better place with more nudists! :)

Thanks for the correction,:oops: my mind was on higher things, but I have fixed it now!


"All the beauty of life is made up of light and shadow", Leo Tolstoy;
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Apr 18, 2020 17:52 |  #2303

Pippan wrote in post #19048859 (external link)
Do we actually know yet whether getting, and recovering from, this infection results in immunity? And if so, how effective and for how long?

I don't think so. I keep reading that some on SoKo got it a second time but I have never seen anything definitive.


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Capn ­ Jack
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Apr 18, 2020 18:03 |  #2304

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048915 (external link)
.
Actually, deer DO eat teasel - I have photos that prove so.

It is actually the opposite of what you say - deer love the non-native teasel plants for both the food and cover they provide. . Deer absolutely love the teasel! . I have, literally, hundreds of photos of deer in thick patches of teasel. . They often ignore the surrounding vegetation in lieu of the teasel.

When the government kills the teasel off, deer leave the area and do not return, because the native plants that replace the teasel do not have a high enough food or cover value to the deer or most other wildlife.

At one place I frequent, the government made a lot of people unhappy when they killed off a huge teasel patch. . People used to visit the teasel patch to see the deer and pheasants, but when it was killed off, the area became devoid of wildlife. . Many people were deprived of much enjoyment ...... and the deer and pheasants and songbirds were deprived of high quality food and cover.

But I (and you) digress, as this is quite off topic.

.

OK, but, as you said, we did get off the topic. You certainly didn't answer my question, although I appreciate the correction. Perhaps you didn't understand where I was leading. Suppose someone decided to plant something the deer didn't like? Where does that person's rights end, before they interfere with the rights of someone who wants the deer around?




  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Post edited 10 months ago by Tom Reichner.
     
Apr 18, 2020 18:18 |  #2305

Trevor,

I sent you the full answer, just the way I typed it up. But there were a couple things that I didn't want to post publicy, so I deleted those parts in this response here (below).

Tronhard wrote in post #19048917 (external link)
I was surprised and saddened to read that you would be prepared to sacrifice even loved ones for the sake of the principle of your individual freedom of choice. Everything I have read from you indicates a thoughtful, balanced and responsible person. Psychologists will tell us that we reject what we fear, so perhaps you could explain exactly what you fear if you are not able to live life as you define it.

I fear having dreams and desires and not being able to fulfill them. Like wanting to go on trips that I can't afford to go on. Or wanting to photograph certain species of wildlife that I am not able to photograph. Or ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- and having to settle for less physically attractive women than those I really long for. It sucks to want something and not be able to have it, and I fear those feelings.

I fear getting caught for ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- .

I fear having to live a "normal life" instead of an adventurous one. I see all of the "family men" that I know and am afraid that someday my life may be like theirs - boring.

I fear that necessity will some day force me into making commitments (to a source of income) that will no longer allow me to take off whenever I want, for as long as I want.

I fear things that make me use a lot of focus and concentration in order to learn them. I do not like how it feels to think really hard about something in order to figure it out, and I dread ever being in a situation where I will be forced to think hard like that.

I fear boredom, and the kind of life where each day is fairly similar to all the other days. I also fear boredom in the sense that none of the things available to me at any given moment will be exciting or interesting enough to satisfy my craving for stimulation from external sources (it takes effort to truly entertain myself from within, and there are times when I am tired and I just want something effortless to entertain me).

I fear being uncomfortable - like only being able to heat my house to 65 degrees and thus having to wear clothes, instead of being able to keep my house up at 74 or 75 degrees and wearing nothing but my birthday suit when I am home. It is not as comfortable to have clothes on as it is to not have clothes on. Or feeling a little "oily" or "sticky" and not being able to take a shower right away so that I feel clean.

I fear that my internet or my computer will fail someday, and that for a spell I will not be able to entertain myself in the way that I prefer.

I also fear that the NFL will have to cancel at least a part of its 2020 schedule of games, and that would deprive me of the enjoyment and passion that are such a huge part of my life.

I fear my parents dying, and not having that "home base" back in Pennsylvania that I have had all my life. I realize this is inevitable, and I fully accept that, but I fear the feelings of loss that I expect to have when that time comes.

I fear that our government will manage wildlife in a way that reduces my ability to photograph them the way that I want to. Like culling populations that they think are over-abundant, or closing certain areas off to photography and other recreation. This has already happened in a few areas, and it has caused an enormous disruption in my life and reduced the overall quality of my life.

I fear situations that will require me to do things I don't like doing in order to resolve them. . Things like a water heater dying - it is very uncomfortable to go down into my basement and cut out the existing water heater and bring it up the steps and go through the process of getting a new one down there and piping it in. . There are cobwebs and I don't like how they feel when they get all over me, and I don't like how it feels to have to scrunch my body up to work in tight spaces.

I guess to summarize, my greatest fears are having to endure things that I don't like, that are unpleasant or uncomfortable. . And I also fear not being able to do the things that I like to do the most, like adventuring in nature in many different parts of the continent, or being able to watch football games or movies whenever I want to watch them.

Those are my very greatest fears.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 18, 2020 18:24 |  #2306

Capn Jack wrote in post #19048933 (external link)
Suppose someone decided to plant something the deer didn't like? Where does that person's rights end, before they interfere with the rights of someone who wants the deer around?

.
I don't know, Jack.

That's a little like asking, "What about someone who likes to rob people? Shouldn't their rights be limited, for the sake of their potential victims' well being?"

These kinds of questions require a lot of thought in order to write a great response to, and I don't particularly like thinking hard. . In fact, thinking hard is one of my greatest fears (as stated in the post above).


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Capn ­ Jack
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Apr 18, 2020 18:50 |  #2307

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048948 (external link)
.
I don't know, Jack.

That's a little like asking, "What about someone who likes to rob people? Shouldn't their rights be limited, for the sake of their potential victims' well being?"

These kinds of questions require a lot of thought in order to write a great response to, and I don't particularly like thinking hard. . In fact, thinking hard is one of my greatest fears (as stated in the post above).

.

An internet forum may not be suited to the great response, either. You've put more thought into your answer than most people, and I appreciate that.




  
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Apr 18, 2020 19:01 |  #2308

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048948 (external link)
.
I don't know, Jack.

That's a little like asking, "What about someone who likes to rob people? Shouldn't their rights be limited, for the sake of their potential victims' well being?"

These kinds of questions require a lot of thought in order to write a great response to, and I don't particularly like thinking hard. . In fact, thinking hard is one of my greatest fears (as stated in the post above).

.

Whenever I am faced with questions like that, I simply put myself in the shoes of the victim and ask "how would I feel if somebody did that to me?" Fortunately there are laws against robbery.


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Tom ­ Reichner
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Apr 18, 2020 19:16 |  #2309

sapearl wrote in post #19048967 (external link)
.
Whenever I am faced with questions like that, I simply put myself in the shoes of the victim and ask "how would I feel if somebody did that to me?" Fortunately there are laws against robbery.
.

.
I don't have to ask, or wonder, what the victim would feel like. . I was robbed last year, with the thieves taking things that were not only of great financial value, but also of great sentimental value. . I lost a year's worth of financial security, as well as items that mean a lot to me and my family, from a generational standpoint. . Nothing was recovered.

And yet I still have to think about Jack's question, because it should not be so easy to deny someone the ability to do what they want, even if, in our eyes, it is wrong and hurts others. . Before we deny anyone the right to do anything, we should do so only after great deliberation.

There is some value in people protecting their own property (more effectively than I tried to protect mine), instead of people relying on the law, or society, to protect it for them. . The responsibility to protect my property falls on my shoulders, not on those of the law or of society.


.


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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sapearl
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Post edited 10 months ago by sapearl.
     
Apr 18, 2020 19:39 |  #2310

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19048973 (external link)
.
I don't have to ask, or wonder, what the victim would feel like. . I was robbed last year, with the thieves taking things that were not only of great financial value, but also of great sentimental value. . I lost a year's worth of financial security, as well as items that mean a lot to me and my family, from a generational standpoint. . Nothing was recovered.

And yet I still have to think about Jack's question, because it should not be so easy to deny someone the ability to do what they want, even if, in our eyes, it is wrong and hurts others. . Before we deny anyone the right to do anything, we should do so only after great deliberation.

There is some value in people protecting their own property (more effectively than I tried to protect mine), instead of people relying on the law, or society, to protect it for them. . The responsibility to protect my property falls on my shoulders, not on those of the law or of society.

.

That's awful about your robbery Tom - very sorry to hear about something like that.

I do agree our primary protection against things like theft should be our own common sense actions like locked doors, security lights, perhaps barking dogs and not leaving valuables in plain sight. Failing that we have the law and the presence of patrol cars in most areas as a deterrent. This is as it should be, otherwise we have vigilantism and chaos. But I digress on that point.....


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