Battery Replacement

I cleaned out my closet and came across an OLD Lumedyne 052C battery. I hadn't used it in at least ten years. I had the batteries replaced about 12 years ago by one of those battery stores. Originally, the 052C was outfitted with NiCads, but I believe that those were replaced with NimH.

Q1: Does anyone know of a replacement battery for this? I took the panel off to look, but the batteries are taped together, so I can't tell what's in there.

Interestingly, it still had a little juice in it. I recharged it and got about ten shots with fast recycle, then it took longer and longer to recycle. I plugged it in and recharged it and got forty full power flashes at immediate recycling before it slowed down to a crawl.

Q2: is it possible that recharging and discharging it will reform the batteries (as if the replacement batteries were actually NiCads).

I've done a search for the battery, but I've come up with nothing.

It seems that there are still sources to buy NiCad cells for the 52C, but no mention of newer battery technology that can be substituted.

I would measure length and diameter of a single cell, to try to find similar sized NiMH cells. But there is an associated issue that NiCad cells have a different (lower) voltage than NiMH, and the existing charger might not work to charge the NiMK substitute.

Wilt wrote in post #19059423
It seems that there are still sources to buy NiCad cells for the 52C, but no mention of newer battery technology that can be substituted.

I would measure length and diameter of a single cell, to try to find similar sized NiMH cells. But there is an associated issue that NiCad cells have a different (lower) voltage than NiMH, and the existing charger might not work to charge the NiMK substitute.

Actually, NiCD and NiMH are both 1.2v cells and chargers for one can usually do the other without problem. The 52C uses a cell pack that's heat-shrunk. Just measure the cells size and order the NiMH cells with solder tabs that are closest, solder them up, and shrink them into a new pack!

docholliday_sc001 wrote in post #19061439
Actually, NiCD and NiMH are both 1.2v cells and chargers for one can usually do the other without problem. The 52C uses a cell pack that's heat-shrunk. Just measure the cells size and order the NiMH cells with solder tabs that are closest, solder them up, and shrink them into a new pack!

The rating of NiMH might say 1.2V, but when they are fully charged they will measure 1.35V or higher. I recall that NiCad had, when freshly charged, 1.25V measured. I have a Phillips programmable remote control for TV/stereo which will report Battery Low even with freshly charged NiCad, but it has no complaints and have full operation with NiMH.

Yeah, NiCD and NiMH are of different chemistries, and use different
methods for charging and such. As Wilt mentions, the two chemistries
fully charge to slightly different voltages, and as such, they use
different charging approaches.

Devices made for these different cell chemistries may also behave
as optimized towards one or another, as Wilt also mentions.

Generally not a good idea to substitute one cell type with another,
other than using standard disposable alkaline cells for a direct
replacement fit such as for AA, AAA, C, D, etc...

SkedAddled wrote in post #19061557
Yeah, NiCD and NiMH are of different chemistries, and use different
methods for charging and such. As Wilt mentions, the two chemistries
fully charge to slightly different voltages, and as such, they use
different charging approaches.

Devices made for these different cell chemistries may also behave
as optimized towards one or another, as Wilt also mentions.

Generally not a good idea to substitute one cell type with another,
other than using standard disposable alkaline cells for a direct
replacement fit such as for AA, AAA, C, D, etc...

Agree, mixing chargers is not advised. “Battery University”, a pretty reputable source with respect to battery technology says the following

Well, to each their own. I've rebuilt hundreds, probably closer to a thousand, packs in the last 20 years going from NiCD to NiMH using the same charger circuit without redesign and without any complaints. All resulting in the advantage of gained operation time, longevity, and charge consistency. Not just for camera lighting, but also tools, appliances, and instruments including Lumedyne, Quantum/Sunpak (belt packs), Craftsman, Makita, Norelco, NLS scopes, Sencore meters, etc.

Yes, you don't MIX chemistries. But a complete change of all cells isn't mixing chemistry. Not a single complaint or problem, but again, to each their own...

You can charge NiMH similarly to NiCd and they will run. However, if you are interested in maximizing NiMH lifespan then you adapt your charging algorithm. E.g. NiCd are very robust against overcharging (and therefore can cope with a very simple charger) while NiMH don't take this as gracefully over the long run. But still better to use NiMH then NiCd or not using your old equipment at all because you can not buy NiCd cells (e.g. here on the other side of the pond NiCd are only special use).

drmaxx wrote in post #19061785
You can charge NiMH similarly to NiCd and they will run. However, if you are interested in maximizing NiMH lifespan then you adapt your charging algorithm. E.g. NiCd are very robust against overcharging (and therefore can cope with a very simple charger) while NiMH don't take this as gracefully over the long run. But still better to use NiMH then NiCd or not using your old equipment at all because you can not buy NiCd cells (e.g. here on the other side of the pond NiCd are only special use).

Actually, the 622 packs and Turbo Zs that have been re-celled do fine with the old charger. The NiCD cells lasted around 2 years avg in the packs and the re-celled NiMH have been doing fine for over 4 years now. Runtimes have been much higher and obviously, partial charge cycles are much better handled.

docholliday_sc001 wrote in post #19061822
Actually, the 622 packs and Turbo Zs that have been re-celled do fine with the old charger. The NiCD cells lasted around 2 years avg in the packs and the re-celled NiMH have been doing fine for over 4 years now. Runtimes have been much higher and obviously, partial charge cycles are much better handled.

Good to see these positive experience! It just proves that reality is much more diverse that what you would expect from theory.

Thanks for all of the wisdom. I was surprised that the old Lumedyne 052 even lit up. I worked with it and got fifty full power flashes out of it and it showed no inclination to slow the recycle. I hooked it up to a beater Vivitar 5600 and let it run the battery down. I recharged it twice overnight after babysitting it a few hours. The last time that I charged it, it fully charged (I think) in less than three hours.

I'm now seeing if it will hold a charge. It's on day three of not being used. I'm wondering if there's a good way of determining its strength without having to pop the flash at full power for 250-300 shots.

Any ideas?

I know that I should just break down and have new batteries installed. They're not that expensive.

I have a herd of Quantum Bantam batteries that I re-celled recently. Each ( except one) charges up and holds a charge as if new.

I have a tendency to hold onto equipment a lot longer than I should (especially lighting), but light is light. I still have a 35 year-old box-and cable Novatron set-up that still works! If I were still doing photography full-time, I'd probably snag several battery powered mono;ights. Those Bowens and Photogenics weighed a ton.

Some of those older cells would "wake up" after a few charge cycles if they've been left drained for a bit. I guess it would depend if you are going to use those packs for production work or not. If you need to rely on them, I'd get them swapped out just to be safe. But if you don't have a need for them to be dead-on predictable, I'd probably just used them until they finally get noticably weak.

Fifty full power fires isn't too bad for something that's been sitting for a while and just got charged up. As I've said, they may re-form and work just fine after using them a bit.

There's nothing wrong with old-as-hell gear! I use a mix of old Broncolor lighting packs along side my new ones and are just as reliable (if not more).

I've pretty much retired from photography as a constant stream of income, but I still do an occasional small product shot that requires a small set and little light. I no longer use studio lights because I don't have the light-hogging view camera anymore. I can risk using the Lumedyne
as-is even if I get only fifty flashes per charge. I still have my herd of Quantum Bantams from when I did event photography. I tested each with a new battery and all but two of seven were goners. Two chargers were goners as well.

I can't complain. I got a lot of use out of them.

I straightened out my gear closet some time ago and counted 14 Vivitar 285s from the eighties and early nineties. All but one still fired up.

Hmmmm... I wonder why I even care about these things anymore.

Update:

I've been charging and running the battery down almost completely. The battery can produce at least 200 full power flashes on a Vivitar 285.

I'll trigger the flash 25 times (3-5 seconds between flashes) then turn it off, then go back to it and pop it some more.

Does this recovery sound like what a 12 year old Nicad pack would be capable of? I'm just fascinated by the rejuvenation of this pack, even though I have no immediate use for it.

If I were called to cover an event, I might consider getting the batteries changed out though I do still have some re-celled Quantum Bantams. (Can you believe it?).

Experience with NiCd will vary. I have individual NiCd cells that will not accept a charge at all...and I have tried to recharge the cell in four different chargers, from 'stupid' ones to smart ones.

For that matter, same happens with NiMH. I always buy cells in sets of 4 or 8. I keep them together as a set, and use them that way, never mixing cells from different sets. Yet I have encountered individual cells out of a set which will not recharge correctly...one dud out of 4,