Is This a Female or Juvenile Male Red-winged Blackbird?

I thought this was a female until someone thought it juvenile male. Anyone with the correct ID?

Let me first pick my jaw up off the floor,.
If the title had said "juvenile RWB " in the image sharing section, I might have never opened the thread, just another fairly boring RWB shot, I would have thought.

this is an absolute stunner!

I think this is a Juvy male. The brightly colored areas on the shoulder, where the adult male has the red patch, I don't think you see that on the females.

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #19068618
Let me first pick my jaw up off the floor,.
If the title had said "juvenile RWB " in the image sharing section, I might have never opened the thread, just another fairly boring RWB shot, I would have thought.

this is an absolute stunner!

I think this is a Juvy male. The brightly colored areas on the shoulder, where the adult male has the red patch, I don't think you see that on the females.

Thank you very much, Jake, for your kind comment about the image. As for the ID, I've been suspecting the same. Though I've taken many shots of the Red-winged, this one confused me.

Females can definitely have some red/rusty coloration through the scapular areas but it isn't always extremely evident. This looks better for a female to me, as the markings are so solidly defined and I would expect a male that was starting to show color like that to be darker, as well.

It *is* a stunning RWB shot, either way.

One of my local females gathering nest material, as reference:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/TCZD​e1

More properly, it is an immature male, not a juvenile:

"Juvenile" is a bird in its first plumage, but the term "immature" defines a bird that is any age other than adult. So, "immature" is a broad term that includes or lumps juvenile and sub-adult plumages. A juvenile is an immature bird, but an immature bird is not necessarily a juvenile.

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I will be the dissenting guy and say that it is a female. . Absolutely a female with no doubt whatsoever. . I spend hundreds, yes, hundreds, of hours with Red-winged Blackbirds.

This looks just like any female I have ever seen (except for the few rare melanistic ones), and it looks nothing at all like any of the immature males I have seen.

I have no idea why anyone is saying it is an immature male.

The one thing I will agree with everyone on is that it is an absolutely stunning photo. . Freaking awesome topside capture!


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Great capture! Wow.

Was this at the Arsenal?

Snydremark wrote in post #19068629
Females can definitely have some red/rusty coloration through the scapular areas but it isn't always extremely evident. This looks better for a female to me, as the markings are so solidly defined and I would expect a male that was starting to show color like that to be darker, as well.

It *is* a stunning RWB shot, either way.

One of my local females gathering nest material, as reference:

IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/TCZD​e1 RWBB-4043 by Eric, on Flickr

Thanks again, Eric, for your helpful response and the referential photo. Much appreciated ~

CDMOOSE wrote in post #19068743
More properly, it is an immature male, not a juvenile:

"Juvenile" is a bird in its first plumage, but the term "immature" defines a bird that is any age other than adult. So, "immature" is a broad term that includes or lumps juvenile and sub-adult plumages. A juvenile is an immature bird, but an immature bird is not necessarily a juvenile.

Good reminder regarding the difference in terminology. Thanks, Al ~

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19068751
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I will be the dissenting guy and say that it is a female. . Absolutely a female with no doubt whatsoever. . I spend hundreds, yes, hundreds, of hours with Red-winged Blackbirds.

This looks just like any female I have ever seen (except for the few rare melanistic ones), and it looks nothing at all like any of the immature males I have seen.

I have no idea why anyone is saying it is an immature male.

The one thing I will agree with everyone on is that it is an absolutely stunning photo. . Freaking awesome topside capture!


.

Thanks, Tom, your comments are very helpful re the ID, and I very much appreciate your compliment re the photo ~

dasmith232 wrote in post #19068810
Great capture! Wow.

Was this at the Arsenal?

No, it was in your neighboring city just south of yours. While this photo was taken in a park near my house, if you'd like to photograph RWB, I'd say the best place for it is at the Fountain Creek Nature Center in Fountain. There are lots of RWBs there.

CDMOOSE wrote in post #19068743
More properly, it is an immature male, not a juvenile:

"Juvenile" is a bird in its first plumage, but the term "immature" defines a bird that is any age other than adult. So, "immature" is a broad term that includes or lumps juvenile and sub-adult plumages. A juvenile is an immature bird, but an immature bird is not necessarily a juvenile.

That's actually the first time someone's defined that difference so clearly; thanks, man!

This one was taken at the same location but of a different bird. This one's even more confusing since only the red badge is showing and not the rest. I'm assuming it's a female. It's really hard to find a definitive image of immature male for comparison. Aren't males -- whether juvenile, immature or adult -- predominantly black? Any thoughts on this one?

SYS wrote in post #19069385
Aren't males -- whether juvenile, immature or adult -- predominantly black? Any thoughts on this one?

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Yes, all male Red-winged Blackbirds, whether juvenile, immature, or adult, are predominantly black. . The reddish patch on the wing has nothing to do with ID, with respect to male or female of this species.

If you completely ignore the color of the epaulet, you will have a much easier time telling male from female, because that is what seems to be confusing you (and others, apparently).

The time you would want to pay attention to the epaulet color is when you are trying to determine whether you are seeing a Red-winged Blackbird or a Tri-colored Blackbird. . But the epaulet color has nothing to do with sexing either species.


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Tom Reichner wrote in post #19069421
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Yes, all male Red-winged Blackbirds, whether juvenile, immature, or adult, are predominantly black. . The time you would want to pay attention to the epaulet color is when you are trying to determine whether you are seeing a Red-winged Blackbird or a Tri-colored Blackbird. .

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And also the age, I believe, with the epaulet color coming to full as an adult and "colder" color as juvenile and immature female?

Thank you for your helpful response ~