Crop vs full frame

Two Hot Shoes wrote in post #19060270
WHAT?? You mean in the same way the Hasselbald H6D50c is not a medium format camera, or the H5D for that matter. Then there is the Pentax 645D and Z are not medium format cameras and I guess the Phase One IQ150 is not one either. I think we should call 135mm Mini Full Frame in that case, you know so as not to confuse it with a true digital full frame camera. Now excuse me as I have to go shoot something with my full frame camera.

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I guess we can get deeeeeep into details of sensor specifications.

If I buy a Canon R5 or Sony A7R4 in the next while.... it'll be more than enough for my disposable income hobby

If I was full time and required to provide service for portrait/clients , I'd without a doubt personally own a Fuji GFX 100 for niche work and full frame for events.... That would be my professional "tools" in that trade to meet my need, requirements and preference.

I think previous mirrored Canon, Nikon full frame shooters will start experimenting back to their old roots. As Canon and Nikon are gonna be the dominating new kid on the block FF mirrorless systems capable of modern full frame, high tech, high iso performing beasts. These new Canon/Nikon FF mirrorless will have optional "light" weight form factor. Sony FF already has heavy pig workhorse glass and also light weight glass that is also pro application. For example my A73 I use the sigma 35 f/1.2 (absolutely killer fantastic glass) or if I needed fast aperture smaller form factor the Sony 35 f/1.8 will land the shots and meet the needs for documentation. Sony A73 high iso is a freak performer and love it!!

I will continue to use my typical small sensored FF to assure it meets my sweet preference spot in high iso performance which is still cleaner than smaller sensors. My 5dmk4 and Sony A73 in challenging light has yet disappointed me in RAW files that fall apart in low light compared to smaller sensor systems. FF is "good enough" for me LOL!!

Simply put.....if micro 4/3 system meets your needs in your required lighting you're golden. If M43 is too noisy, buy a modern aps-c crop sensor system. If you have no issues and crop suits your needs your good to go. If you want better low light performance and cleaner files you can buy modern FF or larger format sensors. If you need to shoot a tonne of events the sweet spot of 24MP to 40++ MP may be great for workflow. Yes the Fujifilm GFX100 is a fast AF performer but not certain what kind of photog would want 100MP files for a fast paced event with thousands of required images. Not to mention the requirement to stop down the aperture to get more in focus due to the shallower dof of the larger sensor vs FF.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
People/photogs can buy whatever hardware they desire.

Definitely

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
At this moment in time Sony aps-c technology and physical crop sized sensor do perform as well as older generation FF sensors. I can also say every improvement that aps-c experiences, there is an upgrade to modern full frame. Full frame has elevated to another level and has surpassed aps-c. Aps-c will never match FF in high iso performance due to science. Just like FF will never match Fuji medium format (large format not true MF) or Medium format.

I'm living the "old" and still love Mirrored bodies due to the superior autofocus capabilities in a black hole while using red focus assist No mirrorless FF can touch that in accuracy for my events I do from time to time. This is where I still dust off my older FF 5dmk3 and 5dmk4.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
If Fuji X-t2,3,4 matched the sensor performance of the modern FF, I'd still be using/testing/experime​nting with the fuji world. I love my zoom lenses as well as primes. AS far as "crop vs full frame" I merely accept the fact that an aps-c system will never have the same dof using f/2.8 zooms unless you use a heavier f/1.8 aps-c designated zoom lens. Instead of fighting this "hardware specification/fact" it's just easier for me to buy the massive selection of FF glass for my Sony and Canon system and be in a sweet spot of overall performance.

If I was a prime guy only I'd settle for aps-c and stick with f/1.4 and pray for heavier f1.0, f/1.2 alternatives.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
It's understood that Hardware has nothing to do with creativity. Hardware's capabilities is where humans each have personal standards or idealism. aps-c high iso performance even in 2020, in my case does not meet my standards in the sweet spot of the collective sensor performance, render/look/dof that FF provides me. Incremental difference to "big" differences in sensor performance is still something people analyze as meeting or missing their personal standards. Everyone has their own comfort zone.

Hardware is the least and last and really negligable when it comes to creativity. the slight difference in lowlight perfomance or DOF between APSC and 24X36mm is nothing compared to the creative options you get by going 4X5" with a 172mm Kodak Aero Ektar or a 6X7cm system. Yes the workflow will be wastly different and maybe limiting compared to the speed of todays Digital. What most people in general are seeking is "The best" not because they need it or because they have met the limitations of their current gear but due to a fear of missing out. Umfortunately many buy into the concept yu need a full frame camera to be taken serious or make great photos even if they are not even close to the physical limitations of modern apsc. Sadly this leads to old gen FF and a lack of funds to proper lenses resulting in less performance and even less joy than could have been.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
I'm grateful for the gear manufacturers are pumping out. I use my disposable income to enjoy this rewarding hobby in photography. My standards in hardware is just the same as when I was more serious in the tough photog industry. I'd say hobbyist/semi pro's can be even more critical in a personal hobby as far as IQ is concerned. Disposable income does not base G.A.S based on forecasting business plans or meeting budgets.

Im glad youre doing well.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
I personally know more hobbyists owning much higher end gear than the people working in the industry. IQ becomes extremely personal and not just documenting clients. "Good enough" is sometimes taken literally or some go beyond friends/family or clients expectations. I choose full frame but some laugh and use medium format. Hardware is only part of the equation but it still carries a lot of weight in how the final product can look (to your taste).

Yes this is what Im talking about. Even relative newbies not knowing an F-stop from a Bus stop. It becomes not a bout the needs but about having the best no matter what and with no realistic opininon of own capablities and true needs.

AlanU wrote in post #19060263
If we always had ideal lighting I'd use still choose Full frame due to f/2.8 zoom dof for versatility. If I was a prime shooter living in ideal light, I would jump back into Fujifilm aps-c and be less of a pain in the rear in the fuji forums

crop vs full frame is a big discussion as it's not simply a technical specification comparison. Human bias or preference plays a huge role for "reasons" in shooting crop or full frame. Personally it makes no difference in what people use in hardware because your "art" is your concern. We just love discussion behind a monitor and keyboard for entertainment and expressing our points of view

I always do. It changes from flat to contrasty, cold to warm and hard to soft, It can lack in intensity and even sometimes I aply my own but it is the challenge and joy of photography to mskr the best of it.

Two Hot Shoes wrote in post #19060270
WHAT?? You mean in the same way the Hasselbald H6D50c is not a medium format camera, or the H5D for that matter. Then there is the Pentax 645D and Z are not medium format cameras and I guess the Phase One IQ150 is not one either. I think we should call 135mm Mini Full Frame in that case, you know so as not to confuse it with a true digital full frame camera. Now excuse me as I have to go shoot something with my full frame camera.

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Nice pic on the wall.

Why thank you. Took that with a tiny icicle crop camera and a lens that ‘the internet’ say negative things about. I like it to. It’s a room full of nice things

Archibald wrote in post #19060278
You are talking about a different kind of store, a place that is a social experience. What I want in a camera store is staff that knows their stuff. That is what we have in Calgary. They are not chatty, though. If you show up just to be friendly, you won't be appreciated.

Those are largely gone in the US. Whenever I visit a local camera store I usually ask a couple of test questions to determine whether they will give an honest answer or try to push goods that they have. Sadly many fail that test right off. I don't mind them being honest and saying what they stock and why I might want to try it. But more often than not they give shady responses. I would love to have a local shop I trust.

The B B electronics super store's interest free financing helped me get my lenses and camera bodies. In the 1980's it was a T-50 then a AE-1 Program purchased at Montgomery Wards. Used it several until the shutter until the dreaded shutter squeal happened. In the 1990's I moved forward with technology purchased a used EOS 650 35mm and Tamron 28-80. Wow! what a difference having EOS Autofocus so simple and easy to just enjoy its features. The Elan 2 E was next and I totally fell in love with the eye control focus. I personally wish they would put it in their digital camera bodies. Anyhow technology moved forward. I would be able to re-use my lenses. I finally took the bait and purchased a digital crop sensor 30d to save money on film and developing at the time. Much later with my interest free purchases paid off. I finally purchased full frame 6d mark 2 when the magazines focused on newer cameras and when the prices dropped some. Notice that I purchased 2 camera bodies. Wasted money? No not really but the money spent does add up over time. Much later I began replaced a few lenses with L lenses. Yes I have even purchased 2 new very nice Tamron lenses to save some money and they are good enough for my needs. I'm not rich. Very important whatever brand you choose. Do be sure to price the available lenses and accessories before making any camera body purchase. Pick a up a few display models and see how they fit your hands. Do you like the grips and knobs ? Download some instruction manuals for the cameras you are considering. Also find a few free tutorial and review and photography basics videos online. Being totally realistic. I'm not making a living as a photographer and do not need a digital medium format camera. I rarely enlarge or print my photos. If I ever played the lottery and actually won I might be tempted to buy a digital medium format camera. after all other expenses were paid in full. If the camera only comes out of the closet during special events and holidays you may not want to over spend. Personally getting a full frame mirrorless may be the way to go. There a lot of options take your time researching.

jjgoodall65 wrote in post #19036655
Hi all,
My name is Jim. I am brand new to photography and am looking at buying my first professional camera. Since I am stuck at home now i thought it would be a good time to start. I was reading this article and it looks like full frame is the way to go, however the cameras are so expensive. I was thinking of getting maybe a 70D or 80D to start out with. What are your thoughts?
Thanks,

Not sure how this thread got so far off in the weeds.... though it has been very active. Not sure what you ended up doing, but an 80D for getting going in the DSLR thing is not a bad investment. The things you are seeing people argue/debate are so far afield from anywhere you will be worrying about for some time. They are both good... think the 80D is better in my opinion. It will keep you busy for a few years.

The little Fujis are pretty good too. The main thing is what ever camera you get gives you the ability to manually drive it - that is where the creative side comes in. Controlling Depth of Field, shutter speed, ISO.... super important to creativity. Full Frame would be super cool - but hardly necessary in this part of your journey. Rumors have it Sony is coming out with a sub 1000 dollar full frame soon... but who knows when soon is. You can also pick up a used Canon 6D pretty cheap as well.

A lot depends on what your target subject is. Anything fast moving or hard to lock onto... like birds in flight, the 6D may be more challenged. But scenics and people... the 6D is a wonderful camera.

If I were choosing for a friend, I would go 6D mk II used, or 80D. Lots of glass available. Reliable as all heck. Great colors. All cameras are pretty dang good now days. Neither of these cameras will hold you back unless your doing sports or wildlife a lot. If wildlife is more your things... 80D is probably better.

Hope you are enjoying what ever you ended up with. The camera is usually the least limiting factor in photography.

Jim has a grand total of 2 posts on this forum and nothing since March. I get the feeling he isn't reading this.

Croasdail wrote in post #19119264
If I were choosing for a friend, I would go 6D mk II used, or 80D. Lots of glass available. Reliable as all heck. Great colors. All cameras are pretty dang good now days. Neither of these cameras will hold you back unless your doing sports or wildlife a lot. If wildlife is more your things... 80D is probably better.

Interesting choice.. What about 5D mkIII used? Isn't it cheaper and has a better advantage overall?

I would also feel the 5D-III to be a reasonable choice. Dual card slots for file redundancy too.

In current tech bodies: RP and R10 are in the $1K range nudging higher the R and R7. Plenty of back-forth between the FF and APS-C sensors.

FrostMonolith wrote in post #19402683
Interesting choice.. What about 5D mkIII used? Isn't it cheaper and has a better advantage overall?

That post is from 2 years ago...prices were different. I personally would prefer the 5D3 for body ergonomics and its features (have been a 5D series shooter). The 6D2 might be alluring for other folks because of the flippy screen for video/live screen, slightly higher MP, or AF sensor array. For me, the 5D4 is an end game until there's a really superior mirrorless with sensor performance. It has improved AF from 5D3, 4K video capability, touchscreen, and significant DR improvement with the bump in MP.

Lots of great info here.

One thing I would suggest, having made the journey from film (Canon) to digital with much trepidation years ago about my lack of knowledge regarding digital, is to buy the best camera - used or new, that you can afford comfortably.

I found that I outgrew my little bridge camera very quickly, within a year I found it had too many limitations. The cameras today, whether dslr or mirroless, are simply great, with many features (like eye AF) that make life so much easier. I would try to figure out what you like shooting, and buy a camera you can grow with as you learn.

If you buy mirrorless, you can get an adapter for the EF lens range that are cheaper than the RF lenses, and I can tell you from experience, I've never had a problem with adapted EF lenses on my eos R. Great for the budget while allowig you to grow into using them.

I own a (1.5x crop factor) Nikon D3500 with assorted DX lenses. I decided to run a test regarding FoV, focal length, viewfinder appearance, etc... to fully see and understand what all the photography sites and pros are talking about....

(1) Set up a tripod, lock it down into place, for looking out the window at my shed in the backyard.

(2) Grab my old, old, classic, Canon AE-1, with the old FD style 50mm lens. Mount it on the tripod. Gather a nice image, focusing on the shed.
(2a) Make mental notes of the viewfinder's appearance. Up, down, side-to-side, and the corners.

(3) Grab my Nikon D3500 with the new DX f/1.8G 35mm prime lens. Mount it on the tripod. Same direction. Same focusing point.
(3a) Again make mental notes of the viewfinder's appearance. Up, down, side-to-side, and the corners.

I swear on my Mother's soul... Both fields of view, and/or perspective view in each camera's viewfinder was almost dead on exact.


Old, ancient, Canon FD mount 50mm lens = 50mm. It is what it is, full frame, manually focused, etc... Everybody remembers these!

New Nikkor DX f/1.8G 35mm lens (x 1.5 crop factor) = 52.5mm (it is a field of view perspective and NOT the actual lens.)
It's a 35mm lens and will always be a 35mm lens. Mount it on a FF Nikon, and it will still be a 35mm lens.

Edit: 50mm will always be perceived as 50mm on a FF camera. 35mm will always be a 35mm, but when coupled with a DX (crop factor) style camera, it will be perceived as a 52.5mm lens. (1.5x crop factor).

ButchA61 wrote in post #19405672
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Edit: 50mm will always be perceived as 50mm on a FF camera. 35mm will always be a 35mm, but when coupled with a DX (crop factor) style camera, it will be perceived as a 52.5mm lens. (1.5x crop factor).
.

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Not entirely so.

Only the angle of view will change ..... meaning how much of the scene is captured will be different when you take the 50mm off of the full frame camera snd put it on the crop sensor camera.

But the perspective, especially how each object in the photo appears, relative to the other objects, will be the same, regardless of what sensor size the 50mm lens is coupled with. . Perspective, not angle of view, is what really gives each focal length its signature "look".


.

Focal length determines magnification and angle of view -- framing. Perspective is determined by where you stand, relative to the objects in the frame. Often, changing focal length allows (or forces) you to stand someplace else.

When using a crop body, I think in effective focal length (EFL). A 50mm lens on a FF sensor will let you stand in a certain place with a certain framing and a certain perspective. A 30mm lens on a sensor with a 1.6x crop factor will have a 48mm EFL and will give you the same perspective and framing from the same spot.

If you took the 50mm lens off the FF and put it on the crop body, you'd have an 80mm EFL lens. Standing in the same spot, your perspective will stay the same, but your framing will get 1.6x tigher. If you were shooting a H&S portrait with the FF, you'd have to take a few steps back with the crop body to get that same framing. That changes your perspective.

That's why 80mm is considered a portrait focal length. Facial features look better with the perspective you get from a few steps back and 80mm frames that up nicely.