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Thread started 03 Jan 2021 (Sunday) 07:52
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Serious Q: Why would someone choose Canon over Nikon knowing...

 
Tom ­ Reichner
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Feb 22, 2023 08:38 |  #106

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19483860 (external link)
They cannot allow this right now, because Sigma, for sure, would beat them to the punch with some very nice unique RF lenses at lower prices.

It concerns me that Sigma could make very nice lenses for Canon cameras before Canon can make them.

Why do you think this is?

Why isn't Canon capable, or willing, to make lenses for their cameras in the same timeframe that Sigma is able to make them?


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Feb 22, 2023 08:43 |  #107

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19483888 (external link)
It concerns me that Sigma could make very nice lenses for Canon cameras before Canon can make them.

Why do you think this is?

Why isn't Canon capable, or willing, to make lenses for their cameras in the same timeframe that Sigma is able to make them?

I don't believe Sigma can, without infringing on Canon's IPs.

And I believe Canon is churning out lenses at the peak of their capabilities...without having to do any reverse engineering.


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Feb 22, 2023 08:54 |  #108

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19483888 (external link)
It concerns me that Sigma could make very nice lenses for Canon cameras before Canon can make them.

Why do you think this is?

Why isn't Canon capable, or willing, to make lenses for their cameras in the same timeframe that Sigma is able to make them?

Based on the lens SKUs released by Canon thus far it addresses the highest-end & highest demand of the lens market.

Timeline of RF lenses

- 2018: 11/12 are L lenses
- 2020: 6/13 are L lenses
- 2021: 4/6 are L lenses
- 2022: 3/7 are L lenses

Give them to 2028 to complete ~99% of staple lenses before doing a product refresh for a Series II.

I'd hazard a guess that Sigma does not have the R&D money or production capacity to output that much lens SKUs.


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Feb 22, 2023 10:21 |  #109

RDKirk wrote in post #19483763 (external link)
What I want to know is how you got to be an Air Force photographer. When I tried (maybe within five years of you), the photojournalist field was locked up tight with people who were going to die in it. The closest I could get to photography was in intelligence, and that was either in long-roll processing or imagery analysis. I didn't want to babysit a Kodak Versamat, so I went into imagery analysis.

That loaded me with a list of security clearances as long as my arm. After the first year, when I went to Personnel to see if I could cross-train into photojournalism, the guy looked my clearances and laughed in my face. "Ain't no way you're getting out of intel."

well its a long story and it wasnt easy thats for sure...

i went to MEPS after working with Gannett and my college paper and the photo shop that did custom (wedding senior portrait business) printing for high end photographers.

i had a portfolio of stuff that had been published. nothing of my own 'because i liked it', all published works.

it was march and i told the person at assignments i wanted to leave after the summer. my girlfriend was going away to school in the fall so she said "how about 20 november?" i said sure. she asked if i had a job in mind that i wanted to do. i had scored 97 or higher in all of the ASVAB tests and my recruiter had told me i could do any job i wanted (because i had such good scores) and so we started looking for a Still Photographer billet. only she looked from November to March and not for a full calendar year. there were none available. i decided based on what my recruiter had told me (any job) i went in open general. when i got to basic training we had a day where we had to go look for a job if we didnt already have one assigned. i KNEW what the AFSC was for Photographer and Graphics and Videography etc. i had read all of the jobs in the 'general' field several times while hanging out at the recruiter's office. the young Airman passed out a sheet of paper with about 14 jobs on it. she said "these are the jobs we have available right now." Photography was NOT on it. Graphics was and being only one digit away from Photography (231x1 v 231x2) i picked Graphics. i told the Airman i had a portfolio and was there someone i could talk to about getting a Photo slot.

i was sent back to the squadron, found the TI doing a non-graded inspection and asked if he would get my portfolio out of the locked storage to which he did and wished me luck. i returned and spoke with a SSgt who was NOTHING like a TI and no reporting statements, just regular conversation. i showed him and a couple of other people who got curious, my portfolio and they wrote across the top of my 'assignment picking sheet' "volunteer for Still Photographic By-Pass Test" and then highlighted it.

when assignments came out i was going to Lowry AFB for GRAPHICS. i spent most of the 16 weeks there in a funk because i wanted Photography pretty badly. i did very well in the classes and went on to my first permanent party assignment at Beale AFB california.

Beale had just gotten a brand new beautiful facility for Graphics, Photography and Film Library a few years prior. i spoke with the photo NCOIC and the Shop Super (both MSgts) and my NCOIC in Graphics and nothing really came of it. about a year and half in maybe, we got a new NCOIC in Photo. a TSgt who took a liking to me. he asked if i had done the CDCs for Photo and while i had, nothing came of it because they werent going to just give me the job. I had been helping out in the Photo lab on some jobs and even pulling Alert Photographer on occasion. he went through and made a training folder for me then said lets go to the training office.

they told me they couldnt just give me the AFSC so TSgt Sykes (a double vietnam vet, first with the 173 Airborne and then with a Combat Camera unit) said I have an idea. we went back to the shop and we typed up a letter explaining my background, my training, the fact that SAC was getting new color print processors which i had run for about 2 years prior to enlisting and sent it to SAC HQ, and the Training office. about a week later, i got a return from a Major who assigned me a Secondary AFSC as a 3-level Still Photographer. i enquired about getting upgraded to a 5-level and this is what they said: "you can not upgrade from a 3 level to a 5 level unless youre assigned to a Photographer billet." i asked how to get assigned as a Photographer because i was in a Graphics assignment. i was told: "as soon as you get your 5 level, you will be eligible to be assigned to a Photographer billet." classic catch-22...

I PCSd to Altus AFB and during the McPeak debacle and AAVS units being disbanded (other then the 2 Combat Camera squadrons) we were reassigned to the base Communication Squadrons. my first sergeant HATED the fact that i had 2 AFSCs. we had a 'fill-in' Shop Superintendent who was a Radar Repair guy (trying to run and direct an Audio-Visual shop) who hated me for having 2 AFSCs. hes the one who brought it up to the Shirt. i had to go to the 1stSgts' office and explain why and how i had a secondary AFSC. he was a complete dink...

i have more to the story but its not important to this portion of the explanation!!!


sorry to everyone who had to endure this!!!!


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RDKirk
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Feb 22, 2023 10:32 |  #110

Ltdave wrote in post #19483930 (external link)
well its a long story and it wasnt easy thats for sure...

i went to MEPS after working with Gannett and my college paper and the photo shop that did custom (wedding senior portrait business) printing for high end photographers.

i had a portfolio of stuff that had been published. nothing of my own 'because i liked it', all published works.

it was march and i told the person at assignments i wanted to leave after the summer. my girlfriend was going away to school in the fall so she said "how about 20 november?" i said sure. she asked if i had a job in mind that i wanted to do. i had scored 97 or higher in all of the ASVAB tests and my recruiter had told me i could do any job i wanted (because i had such good scores) and so we started looking for a Still Photographer billet. only she looked from November to March and not for a full calendar year. there were none available. i decided based on what my recruiter had told me (any job) i went in open general. when i got to basic training we had a day where we had to go look for a job if we didnt already have one assigned. i KNEW what the AFSC was for Photographer and Graphics and Videography etc. i had read all of the jobs in the 'general' field several times while hanging out at the recruiter's office. the young Airman passed out a sheet of paper with about 14 jobs on it. she said "these are the jobs we have available right now." Photography was NOT on it. Graphics was and being only one digit away from Photography (231x1 v 231x2) i picked Graphics. i told the Airman i had a portfolio and was there someone i could talk to about getting a Photo slot.

i was sent back to the squadron, found the TI doing a non-graded inspection and asked if he would get my portfolio out of the locked storage to which he did and wished me luck. i returned and spoke with a SSgt who was NOTHING like a TI and no reporting statements, just regular conversation. i showed him and a couple of other people who got curious, my portfolio and they wrote across the top of my 'assignment picking sheet' "volunteer for Still Photographic By-Pass Test" and then highlighted it.

when assignments came out i was going to Lowry AFB for GRAPHICS. i spent most of the 16 weeks there in a funk because i wanted Photography pretty badly. i did very well in the classes and went on to my first permanent party assignment at Beale AFB california.

Beale had just gotten a brand new beautiful facility for Graphics, Photography and Film Library a few years prior. i spoke with the photo NCOIC and the Shop Super (both MSgts) and my NCOIC in Graphics and nothing really came of it. about a year and half in maybe, we got a new NCOIC in Photo. a TSgt who took a liking to me. he asked if i had done the CDCs for Photo and while i had, nothing came of it because they werent going to just give me the job. I had been helping out in the Photo lab on some jobs and even pulling Alert Photographer on occasion. he went through and made a training folder for me then said lets go to the training office.

they told me they couldnt just give me the AFSC so TSgt Sykes (a double vietnam vet, first with the 173 Airborne and then with a Combat Camera unit) said I have an idea. we went back to the shop and we typed up a letter explaining my background, my training, the fact that SAC was getting new color print processors which i had run for about 2 years prior to enlisting and sent it to SAC HQ, and the Training office. about a week later, i got a return from a Major who assigned me a Secondary AFSC as a 3-level Still Photographer. i enquired about getting upgraded to a 5-level and this is what they said: "you can not upgrade from a 3 level to a 5 level unless youre assigned to a Photographer billet." i asked how to get assigned as a Photographer because i was in a Graphics assignment. i was told: "as soon as you get your 5 level, you will be eligible to be assigned to a Photographer billet." classic catch-22...

I PCSd to Altus AFB and during the McPeak debacle and AAVS units being disbanded (other then the 2 Combat Camera squadrons) we were reassigned to the base Communication Squadrons. my first sergeant HATED the fact that i had 2 AFSCs. we had a 'fill-in' Shop Superintendent who was a Radar Repair guy (trying to run and direct an Audio-Visual shop) who hated me for having 2 AFSCs. hes the one who brought it up to the Shirt. i had to go to the 1stSgts' office and explain why and how i had a secondary AFSC. he was a complete dink...

i have more to the story but its not important to this portion of the explanation!!!

sorry to everyone who had to endure this!!!!

Well, yeah, I had also been deeply into photography since the 9th grade. My high school job was working in an Army post Photo Hobby Shop where I taught soldiers studio portraiture, B&W processing, and color processing. I was also stringing for a local paper and shooting a few weddings. I was nationally published for the college volleyball I was shooting.

My bad luck, if you can call it that, when my recruiter (SSgt Roy Rogers) watched me wait for months for a photojournalist slot to upon up, and I'd also maxed my ASVAB, he advised me not to go in without a guaranteed job, but to choose something I might like and cross train later if the opportunity arose. He suggested computer programming (a suggestion I'd get a few times later, but I was young and dumb) but I went for something with "photo" in the description. But being in Intel is like being in the Mafia. Fortunately, I did like it.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
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Feb 22, 2023 11:49 as a reply to  @ post 19483872 |  #111

If the EF mount was reversed engineered and canon didn’t go after manufacturers, then any conversation between RF could also be reverse engineered the same way, and already has.

Canon has only put the brakes on AF lenses, which to your point might mean that there is something proprietary in the lens and not the body, that is giving canon the ability to come after those products. Not sure, we shall see what the future brings. I can tell you that the viltrox 85 rf works just as well as any canon lens, so it seems easy enough to figure out if they (Viltrox) were able to do it in short order. Of course it could be they took apart an RF lens, found the chipset/board, and copied it, bringing Canon down on them too. :)


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Feb 22, 2023 13:08 |  #112

Tom Reichner wrote in post #19483888 (external link)
It concerns me that Sigma could make very nice lenses for Canon cameras before Canon can make them.

Why do you think this is?

Why isn't Canon capable, or willing, to make lenses for their cameras in the same timeframe that Sigma is able to make them?

I can't answer that, as I don't know the resource and capability of either camp, but the RF lineup is not anything close to the maturity of the EF lenses, and Canon is making as many as they can right now, trying to create lenses in lockstep with their new bodies, like RFS lenses for their last 3 APS-C bodies.

Sigma could make a number of lenses that Canon hasn't yet, and they have in the past as well even in the EF lineup. There are a number of lenses with focal lengths and apertures that Canon didn't make.


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Feb 22, 2023 13:27 |  #113

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19483982 (external link)
If the EF mount was reversed engineered and canon didn’t go after manufacturers, then any conversation between RF could also be reverse engineered the same way, and already has.

Canon has only put the brakes on AF lenses, which to your point might mean that there is something proprietary in the lens and not the body, that is giving canon the ability to come after those products. Not sure, we shall see what the future brings. I can tell you that the viltrox 85 rf works just as well as any canon lens, so it seems easy enough to figure out if they (Viltrox) were able to do it in short order. Of course it could be they took apart an RF lens, found the chipset/board, and copied it, bringing Canon down on them too. :)

It also took Sigma a hell of a long time to get it right, with a number of damaging fails along the way. Sigma once had a particularly bad reputation in that matter.


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Feb 22, 2023 13:54 |  #114

dolina wrote in post #19483479 (external link)
We've seen Ricoh absorb Pentax and Minolta being bought out by Sony.

Nikon has reported some difficulties in the past (external link).

How many more years will consumers buy into nostalgia design of the Fuji X system? Although Fuji is smart by going up market with 0.79x medium format then price their bodies and lenses at par with 1-series bodies and RF L lenses. Makes me wish Canon made the RF system's image circle secretly larger for a future medium format system using RF L lenses.

Larger image sensors will always be better.

But going back I think in the long run Canon & Sony will be ~80% of the digital camera market while all other players fighting over scraps.

Leica will be impervious as their goods are inelastic. Heck I would not be surprised if the last 3 years were among their best.

You forgot what Fuji is king of Instax which is sold at every corner from Walmart to Pharmacy. And Instax is very stable trend.

Leica Camera AG has strong and wealthy base, where portion of real photographers is much less than with any brand, but it is the only manufacturer on the photo gear market which makes nice, boutique things. And not just another digital.


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Feb 22, 2023 13:55 |  #115

RDKirk wrote in post #19484046 (external link)
It also took Sigma a hell of a long time to get it right, with a number of damaging fails along the way. Sigma once had a particularly bad reputation in that matter.



Oh I remember, one of my least favorite lenses was something like a 70-300 I think. Not sure but ugh.

However with years of experience, technology that has doubled in capabilities and speed many times over since the beginning years, having a usb dock to apply updates and fixes, and having churned out great ART lenses, I don’t think that would happen again.


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Feb 22, 2023 14:18 |  #116

kf095 wrote in post #19484052 (external link)
You forgot what Fuji is king of Instax which is sold at every corner from Walmart to Pharmacy. And Instax is very stable trend.

Digital. camera. market. ;-)a

Leica Camera AG has strong and wealthy base, where portion of real photographers is much less than with any brand, but it is the only manufacturer on the photo gear market which makes nice, boutique things. And not just another digital.

That's why I said they're inelastic and the last 3 years probably was very good to them.


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Feb 22, 2023 17:37 |  #117

RDKirk wrote in post #19483935 (external link)
and I'd also maxed my ASVAB, he advised me not to go in without a guaranteed job

When I took the ASVAB in 11th grade they told us "don't worry no recruiters will contact you, you can contact them if you want", well that was BS, I think they started calling the next day.




  
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Feb 22, 2023 18:28 |  #118

TeamSpeed wrote in post #19484039 (external link)
I can't answer that, as I don't know the resource and capability of either camp, but the RF lineup is not anything close to the maturity of the EF lenses, and Canon is making as many as they can right now, trying to create lenses in lockstep with their new bodies, like RFS lenses for their last 3 APS-C bodies.

Sigma could make a number of lenses that Canon hasn't yet, and they have in the past as well even in the EF lineup. There are a number of lenses with focal lengths and apertures that Canon didn't make.

Yeah, in my opinion, Canon really drops the ball by not making significantly different lenses than the traditional norms. That's why I like the 3rd party lenses so much, because Canon refuses to make things like a 60-600mm f6.3, a 300-800mm f5.6, a 15mm wide angle with true macro capabilities to the tune of 2:1 magnification ratio, and a 25mm Macro Probe lens that is only 2 centimeters in diameter. C'mon Canon, get creative and make the radically different lenses that we really need!


"Your" and "you're" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"They're", "their", and "there" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one.
"Fare" and "fair" are different words with completely different meanings - please use the correct one. The proper expression is "moot point", NOT "mute point".

  
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Feb 23, 2023 01:30 |  #119

What, the Canon RF5.2mm F2.8 L Dual Fisheye (external link) is not significantly different from traditional norms? :p


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Feb 23, 2023 02:36 |  #120

Pippan wrote in post #19484271 (external link)
What, the Canon RF5.2mm F2.8 L Dual Fisheye (external link) is not significantly different from traditional norms? :p

Canon, other 1st party brands and 3rd party brands have differing business models relative to their market position.

Canon/Sony/Nikon/etc prioritize high margin & high volume lens SKUs

Sigma/Tamron/etc prioritize niches that they see possible potential for.

It is in terms of time and movements.

Canon's EF lenses numbers in 80+ over 31 years.

Over 4 years Canon's RF lenses have reached 38.

Do I think the RF system will match the number of EF lenses? Odds are it may not especially in the consumer space. It will be ~70% RF L lenses and ~30% RF non-L.


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Serious Q: Why would someone choose Canon over Nikon knowing...
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