Advice on personal situation

I regularly shoot high school sports, as I am the photographer for my school paper. In addition, my photos go online to exposure manager for sale to parents. However, I recently received this e-mail from one of the parents from a team that I corresponed with.

"Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order. Would you be willing to share some of your pictures for our book? We would give you some advertising space in the book. I have no money to pay you. Let me know. Mrs. X"

The problem is that a. e-mails have already been sent to the parents of the players, so advertising would be largely useless and I feel that my photos are good enough to warrant payment (I don't get much revenue from print sales) and b. this parent is good friends with my mother.

Do I bite the bullet and get the pictures to her, or go via some other route?

Interesting problem. The value of an image can be defined by how easily it can be reproduced. If the publisher of the book can easily get someone esle to reproduce the photos that you have taken (as in do again not copy yours) then you have little room to manouver. If they can't then the images are worth something - exactly what is up to you.

Before you feel the pressure that someone is putting you under look at it from the point of view that they are perhaps trying to lever a situation to their advantage, so don't feel bad about respectfully saying no thank you to their offer.

Finally and perhaps most importantly - if the publication isn't willing to pay to make their publication better then they don't need your work and so it has no value to the publisher. In which case it isn't worth publishing - Do you see where I'm coming from? If they don't want to pay then it can't have any value to them and so why do they want it?

They have asked you for something and offered you something in return. You don't need what they are offering so make a counter offer. How about $x per copy sold?

As a photographer "for your school paper", is there any debate over copyright ownership? If not and the images are yours then you must do as you see fit, however, were you a mechanic and a friend of your mothers asked you to fix her car pro bono, to enable her to sell it on at a profit would that be a reasonable request? I would suggest not. I see no difference here, if she wants the photographs she should be prepared to pay the market rate.

TFP sucks. I combat it every day. Don't lower yourself and hold the high ground.

Another way out of this may be to enter a contract where you receive a cut of the sales. If in your opinion your photos add x% value to the book ask for x% revenue from the publisher.

Some publications don't pay until the publication goes on sale.

I'd talk to Mrs X face to face and explain your situation as a photographer (especially the points made in posts 2 and 3).

Another option may be to mention it to your Mum and say Mrs X is wanting my photos for nothing to use in a book what do you think? Your Mum may mention it in one of those tactful ways mothers do and Mrs X then may realise the error of her ways.

Good luck.

One thing that I am not clear on and that is you say " my photos go online to exposure manager for sale to parents." Who receives the funds from those sales now, you or the school?

You may have been backed into a corner that is difficult and there have been some good ideas and thoughts put forward already. Is the advertising really useless. It may be in respect to the sale of this memory book but what if you want to do photography outside of the confines of the school and its activities. If this is something that interests you then negotiate for a large space and not stuck in the bowels of the book.

Out of curiosity how many students at your school. What is the potential for units sold of this memory book. I think it would be fair assessment that you won't get market rates for everything but I think you should get something out of it.

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but this looks like the book is a one time purchase/gift for the coach. Am I missing something? Maybe I am, as why would you put an ad in a memory book? But maybe she is thinking an ad would be the same as a photo credit? If it is a one time purchase for a gift for the coach, and you get photo credit... I say give her the photos. Chances are you have a relationship with said coach too, and it can be your contribution. You know that many folks will see the book and with a photo credit in there, chalk it up to marketing. But again, maybe I'm missing something.

Willow

Willow, you missed ""Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order."

I'd ask what shots she wants to use. Make a comp of them with your name & url on it, & that can be her free ones & your "ad"?
Let her have it free for good will if you plan to shoot there next year.

True, if tfp is the route to go, make sure you get something substantial.

i was thinking the same thing.... if you are gonna GIVE her FREE images to use, do so under the stipulation that they leave your Signature on them and that they cannot be used for anything else... if not, you need to be paid for the usage!

PhotosGuy wrote in post #3084690
Willow, you missed ""Kevin-We are putting together a Memory Book (through My Publisher) as a thank you to the Coach and for the girls to order."

I'd ask what shots she wants to use. Make a comp of them with your name & url on it, & that can be her free ones & your "ad"?
Let her have it free for good will if you plan to shoot there next year.

Thanks! Was posting before my coffee!

The images are all mine, completely. I donate a few images per month to the newspaper because I believe that's a totally worthwhile endeavor and school papers don't have money to pay me.

The exposure manager site is mine (I pay for it), and all of the proceeds go to me. All of the equipment I use is mine as well. There are approximately 30 or 35 girls on the lacrosse team - I was considering asking for a percentage of the sales as some of you have asked. The reason why I don't really care to take the free advertising is that the book would be sold only to lacrosse players, who all already know about my work.

I will not be continuing this endeavor again next year because I will be several hundred miles away at college!

The mother specifically recruited me through my mother to get photos for the parents, players, and the book - I assume this means they don't have a "replacement" for me. She knew all along that I would be doing it to make profits.

Right now I'm leaning towards asking for a percentage of sales.

as a high-school-age photographer trying to make that change from 'for fun' to 'money making' i understand your predicament very well. It is really hard to go from shooting as much as possible because you love it and enjoy it to, well now I am good enough to make money so i should do that.

I would say, ask for a portion of the sales of these books. Let this woman know how you feel about giving away images, use the analogies used in this thread, make it clear to one person that you want to be pro and word will quickly spread throughout the school. As soon as that happens, and people know that you expect compensation for your hard work, they will understand and hopefully be willing to pay.

EDIT: ps.. get a gear list up!

Here's my question: are the books being sold for a profit, or are they selling at-cost to the girls?

I agree you deserve payment for your images, but if a mom is creating a book that girls will buy on-line for actual cost, there are no real proceeds for you to share. Then it's a question of whether a parent or parents want to chip-in to pay you a fee. That's not likely.

So you're likely left with these choices:

1. Do not provide the prints. There's no real "bad press" from this since you will be away at college and don't need these customers in the future.

2. Provide them for maximum ad recognition. Again, since you will be away, this is probably really a "tear sheet" for you to show future clients.

3. Provide them because you don't really care. That's not what I hear.

My guess is you're between a rock and hard place.

Greg

TheChemist wrote in post #3083048
The problem is that a. e-mails have already been sent to the parents of the players, so advertising would be largely useless and I feel that my photos are good enough to warrant payment

That's not a problem. Stop thinking like it is a problem. It's absolutely, 100% okay to decide that you prefer not to give away the fruits of your labors for anything other than actual money.

Politely explain that you prefer not trading your photos for advertising space. If you'd be willing to accept some sort of financial deal based on the number of books sold, or something like that, go ahead and explain to the potential purchaser what you have in mind.

Then you'd think she'd want to treat you - her friend's child - fairly and in a financially reasonable manner, right?

What does your mother's friend (or the friend's spouse) do for a living? Any possibility of a barter arrangement?

"You want to use my photos for free? Sure, I guess that's okay. Oh, by the way, I understand that your husband's a dentist; I need some work done on my teeth. You're my mom's friend, so it'll be a freebie, right? 'Cause I'm not willing to spend any money on this. I mean, I could provide your husband with some good advertising by telling people who fixed my teeth, but I wouldn't be, you know, like paying him."

Hey, if it's fair to give away your professional services on such a basis, how is it unfair when the situation's reversed?

I never cease to be amazed at how willing some (mostly inexperienced) photographers are to give away their work. How some of them actually seem ashamed to ask for payment.

There's nothing inherently wrong about giving away your work for free, in a good cause. But in the 99.9% of situations where the person who wants your work for free isn't going to be using it to help starving children in Ethiopia or some similarly noble cause, there's nothing at all shameful about you wanting to be paid for your photos.