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Thread started 27 Mar 2007 (Tuesday) 19:25
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STICKY: Color problems? [work in progress?]

 
Jaythan
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Apr 26, 2007 15:44 |  #31

René Damkot wrote in post #3109471 (external link)
Where does the 'Camera RGB profile' come from (what camera or RAW processor?)

Try converting it to sRGB. Then at least you have an sRGB workflow, so the image will look closer (not identical!) in a non colormanaged app...


I don't really know. I use a Rebel XT set to sRGB and I don't use RAW.




  
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René ­ Damkot
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Apr 26, 2007 15:48 |  #32

photo_hobby wrote in post #3109478 (external link)
How does this look to you guys?

To me (on Safari) it looks identical to the first and the screenshot of PS.
To the rest of the world (using a non color managed browser), it will probabely look a lot closer to what was intended, since the Embedded color profile is: “sRGB” ;)


Edit: On the Rebel set to sRGB:
AFAIK the embedded profile should then be sRGB, not Camera RGB (never even heard of it)...
Only thing I can think of, is that iPhoto somehow screws up the profile during import.

You could try copying a file to your HDD without using iPhoto, see if you still get the profile mismatch.

Anyone else got a thought?

Off for now, back tomorrow...


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Apr 27, 2007 02:54 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #33

Thanks Ren'e!

This is an ambitious project and I have not fully grasped it myself yet. I hope to be able to get a good handle on it now!


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barkley
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May 21, 2007 06:02 |  #34

I've been trying to follow this thread as well I can, and I think my problem is slightly different.

I'm using a Mac Powerbook and a Canon SD200. I import my pictures via iPhoto 6 and I've noticed that when they appear in iPhoto the color is hugely over-saturated (see photo below, left). When I export them and open the folder in which the jpeg was saved, and then highlight it, the preview image that appears next to it is not over-saturated... but when I open the file in Preview, it is. So it seems that some color profile is being applied to the full-size image but not the thumbnail.

If I open the file in PixelNhance, the over-saturation disappears, and simply opening the file and hitting save without editing it is enough to remove the over-saturation and restore the picture to normal (see photo below, right). Perhaps PixelNhance strips the file of an embedded color profile (note there's no color profile listed for the photo below)? Or is iPhoto not recognizing the profile provided by the camera? Has anyone else had this problem? I get the impression that perhaps a picture is having a color profile added to it twice because a profile in a picture is not being labelled...

I've noticed that the colors are correct only when the profile is stripped from the picture (by PixelNhance) or when I manage to import the picture from the camera via another program and attach a color profile of Color LCD (which is what my monitor shows, of course).

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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René ­ Damkot
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May 21, 2007 11:29 |  #35

Downloaded PixelNhance and gave it a try.
It isn't color managed, and what is worse, it indeed strips the profile. Very bad practice indeed.
Color Management just went out the window :(

I'd say the colors are 'correct' with the higher saturation. After stripping the profile (or assigning the wrong one) they are no longer correct. They might be more pleasing, but that could also be achieved by setting exposure and WB correctly...

Not sure if iPhoto is color managed nowadays. Older versions weren't. Preview is color managed.

Assigning your monitor color profile to an image is not good. Your monitor profile is just that, it's not a working space, nor should be used as one. For one thing, it will change over time.

From the screenshot I'd say you are using AdobeRGB. If you are going to use programs without color management, I'd suggest sRGB.
That way you'll at least be closer...


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René ­ Damkot
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May 22, 2007 06:30 |  #36

A bit on softproofing:
(would have included it in the original post, but got a 'too many images' error, and adding it somewhere in the middle seemed a bit illogical)

What I'd do is this:

Open the image.
In the 'History' palette click the left icon in the bottom ("create new document from current state"). This gives you a duplicate called 'Open' to work on.

Softproof using the paper/printer profile.

Make an adjustment layer to correct the image (if needed), like Bruce Fraser described it here (external link): "The Proof Setup simulation is "live" so you can work inside it. One technique I find effective is to use adjustment layers to optimize the image for a particular print process while working with the soft proof simulation turned on. I then save the adjustment layers in a layer set that's named descriptively for that print process. This allows me to make different optimizations for different print conditions, and turn them on and off as needed."

For instance, the next image, I could have used a hue/saturation adjustment layer, to get the blue/magenta tones in the upper left corner within Gamut.
Simply adjust the softproof, untill it looks as close to the original as possible and as good as can be. Use whatever adjustment layers you like: Selective color, curves, hue/sat.

Main point is, you don't want to permanentely alter the file, that's why you use adjustment layers. (Who knows, maybe you want to print it at a later date on a printer with a larger Gamut, or whatever)

Some examples:
Original top, soft proof bottom (Ilford paper profile, relative colorimetric. I didn't check 'paper white' and 'black ink' so something is left of the image ;))

IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/original_vs_softproof.jpg

Main problems are the upper left erea, and the skin tones loosing 'punch'.
Next the softproof after correction: While not identical to the original, a lot closer...
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/softproof_after_correction.jpg

And the Gamut warning before and after correction:
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/Gamut_warning.jpg

Once you get it close enough, you can flatten the image, and then use Edit > Convert to profile (Edit > Mode > Convert to profile in CS), using the same settings you used in the soft proof. Save this file as a copy (filename_print_profil​ename.jpg or so).

Hope this helps...

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barkley
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May 22, 2007 18:49 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #37

Thanks Rene. The effort is very much appreciated. I suppose you're right, except I just uploaded some more pictures via iPhoto and noticed that, if I simply upload and then export to the desktop without editing the picture, it saves the picture without a color profile. So the picture is displayed with the gaudy over-saturation when it appears in iPhoto after importing from my camera, but the colors are back to normal when exported and there is no listed profile (but the color space is RGB). Same happens when I import through CameraWindow. If I import through Image Capture, however, it embeds a color profile called 'Camera RGB Profile' (or one of my choice). Thing is, when I upload THAT into iPhoto, it appears with the gaudy colors again. So iPhoto doesn't appear to save color profiles, and yet it applies one to pictures unnecessarily when they already have one? I'm afraid I'm having trouble getting my head around this one as it seems so inconsistent. White balance is on automatic at the moment, and the pictures look great on the camera screen as well as when opened outside of iPhoto, so I don't think it's a malfunction in the camera. The problem with PixelNhance must just be a coincidence. Strange...

At any rate, thanks for you help. If anyone has any further thoughts or insight, I'd appreciate it. At the moment I think I'll just try to work outside of iPhoto and PixelNhance as the former applies a skewed color profile and the latter strips it entirely.




  
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René ­ Damkot
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May 23, 2007 06:49 |  #38

By the sound of it, iPhoto uses an embedded profile to display the image, but doesn't export with one. Strange: One would expect some kind of consistency... Maybe it is settable in Prefs?
I don't have the program, so I can't test it... Same goes for 'Camera Window'

As I said before: The 'gaudy over saturation' is probabely what the image really should look like ;) Fix that through proper white balance and exposure, and in camera settings for saturation.
Alternatively, you could forget about 'accurate colors', and just go for 'pleasing colors' by assigning the wrong profile. Sometimes it is an option. (Allthough not one I'd recommend in most cases)

The camera screen is utterly unreliable for judging exposure and colors. For one thing, it isn't calibrated, and mostly is way too bright in dark surroundings, and almost invisible in bright sunlight. Learn how to use the histogram instead. (assuming the camera offers one)


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korigirl
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May 26, 2007 22:03 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #39

Okay, I think I need some help here. I've read the thread but being a complete newbie to color management, I'm not sure if I've got it all figured it out.

Most of my confusions stems from the fact that I've been having this problem for only a few weeks which leads me to believe something has changed.

I use a MacBook Pro with OSX. I do not have a fancy calibrator, although after all of the reading I've been doing, its apparent I need to invest in one.

Here's the problem, I shot my pictures, put them on the computer, open and edit in PS, Save the image and the output was much less saturated than what I viewed in PS. Now, when I view it, its either in ACDSEE v1.6.9 or Firefox. Both of those don't color manage, right? So, if they dont color manage, does this mean I'm viewing on my monitor profile? Well, if thats the case, then I would want my monitor profile to be as close as to what I'm looking at in PS, right? Well, I did some more reading and read that most photographers should use 2.2 gamma even for a Mac so I changed that and now the images are coming out darker after they are saved.

Now, if I go into PS and go to proof setup and look at the Macintosh RGB, Windows RGB and Monitor RGB, they all have completely different colors. I can edit my picture under the Mac and Win and make sure it looks okay for those but my problem is that I never had to do this before. It would be nice if the Monitor and Mac ones were the same. Can I only achieve that with a fancy calibrator? The calibrator under System Preferences definitely leaves something to be desired IMO.

Also, I use sRGB as my working space. I was also shooting in that so I wasn't doing any converting. Here's a picture of the differences:

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE



  
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René ­ Damkot
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May 27, 2007 09:05 |  #40

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Most of my confusions stems from the fact that I've been having this problem for only a few weeks which leads me to believe something has changed.

Check that first ;)

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
I use a MacBook Pro with OSX. I do not have a fancy calibrator, although after all of the reading I've been doing, its apparent I need to invest in one.

It does help. Although IMO a laptop screen is not ideal for color critical work. (Not much to do with this issue though)

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Here's the problem, I shot my pictures, put them on the computer, open and edit in PS, Save the image and the output was much less saturated than what I viewed in PS. Now, when I view it, its either in ACDSEE v1.6.9 or Firefox. Both of those don't color manage, right? So, if they dont color manage, does this mean I'm viewing on my monitor profile?

They don't color manage, so all data is sent to the display 'as is'..

Colors will be (slightly) off, no matter what you do. (Except when you don't color manage in PS; not an option IMHO)

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Well, if thats the case, then I would want my monitor profile to be as close as to what I'm looking at in PS, right?

You want your monitor profile to be accurate.
That *probabely* means it will be close to sRGB, so there should not be a *huge* difference. There will be a difference however.

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Well, I did some more reading and read that most photographers should use 2.2 gamma even for a Mac so I changed that and now the images are coming out darker after they are saved.

Gamma should be 2.2.
Images will appear darker in a non colormanaged program then with Gamma 1.8, but should be closer to PS then when using Gamma 1.8 I think.

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Now, if I go into PS and go to proof setup and look at the Macintosh RGB, Windows RGB and Monitor RGB, they all have completely different colors.

Doesn't sound right.
I opened your screenshot, and proofed it in those three spaces. Looks like this:

IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/ProofWinMacMonitor.jpg

(Your screenshot shows sRGB by the way. Did you convert to sRGB? If not: either your monitor profile, or PS color settings are wrong (check them, including "tick boxes"): In OSX a screenshot has your monitor profile by default)

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
I can edit my picture under the Mac and Win and make sure it looks okay for those but my problem is that I never had to do this before. It would be nice if the Monitor and Mac ones were the same. Can I only achieve that with a fancy calibrator? The calibrator under System Preferences definitely leaves something to be desired IMO.

You won't get that with a calibrator either. You need to understand what those proofs do:

Mac proof is Gamma 1.8. The way it would look in a non colormanaged app on an 'old' mac (running Gamma 1.8 );
Windows proof is assuming sRGB (so an sRGB file shouldn't change; an AdobeRGB will look 'flat');
Monitor profile is a non color managed application on your system. (assumes monitor profile: No conversion of colors)

Note that in my screenshot, the non proofed image looks the same as the windows proof. The Mac proof shows the difference between Gamma 2.2 and 1.8, the Monitor proof shows the difference between my monitor profile and sRGB...

korigirl wrote in post #3272667 (external link)
Also, I use sRGB as my working space. I was also shooting in that so I wasn't doing any converting. Here's a picture of the differences:

You shot jpg?
If you shot RAW it doesn't matter what the camera was set to: Color profile is set in the RAW converter.
(And from your screenshot: I'm guessing the file is AdobeRGB)


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Jun 02, 2007 09:54 as a reply to  @ post 3108830 |  #41

sorry a noice question
i read your great tutorial!
by the way , why don't use s-rgb iec6 (that's a standard )instead of adobe rgb 88 ?


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René ­ Damkot
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Jun 02, 2007 14:25 |  #42

I suppose you mean sRGB IEC61966 vs. AdobeRGB (1998)?
There are a few links about that exact question in the first post (near the end, in the buch of links) ;)
In short: AdobeRGB offers a larger Gamut.


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Jun 07, 2007 18:01 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #43

I am trying really hard to get my head around colour space but there are some things that I just don't understand.

Am I right so far....?

Colour space should be assigned in camera (if shooting JPEG) or during export from a RAW converter (if shooting in RAW)?

What does ICC stand for, and what does this have to do with sRGB?

What is the difference between an assigned profile and an imbedded profile?

How can you calibrate your monitor, using Adobe Gamma for example, if it's not displaying correctly in the first place? Surely the whites, greys and blacks will not look correct?


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René ­ Damkot
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Jun 07, 2007 18:27 |  #44

ICC = 'International Color Consortium (external link)'.

AFAIK "Assigning" is mostly used when you are talking about "Assigning a profile" in Photoshop (As opposed to "Converting to profile"). Apart from that: Yes, the profile is set in the Camera or RAW converter.

Embedded profile is the profile that is embedded into the image. (So color managed software knows how to display it correct)
If there is no embedded profile, and you know what it should be, you can assign one in PS ;)
It's just a different choice of words I'd think, but it can cause misunderstandings.

I've used AdobeGamma on my CRT, and found it a pain. Ten times calibrating got ten different results. All pretty close, but visible differences. Squinting did help a bit. as did removing my contacts :lol:

If you are *profiling* your monitor (calibration requires hardware), you are basically telling the system what looks neutral. (by setting the sliders so 'the center box fades into the patterned frame')
This info is stored in the monitor profile. (let's not get to technical here ;)) The system then "knows" what it has to put in to get neutral colors out, and 'gray' will be displayed as 'gray'.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

  
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Mark ­ Marnell
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Jul 23, 2007 17:47 |  #45

Thanks for all this great info..It looks like a life time of learning.. I use a canon 5d so should iselect rgb to shoot in as opposed to the default srgb..i shoot in raw all the time then straight to light room and then to epson 3800




  
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