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FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Performing Arts 
Thread started 25 Sep 2007 (Tuesday) 09:54
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i got published in today's Boston Globe!

 
stasber
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Sep 28, 2007 09:16 |  #31

taygull wrote in post #4024871 (external link)
Now that the band has the images they can use them pretty much as they see fit.


I don't believe that's necessarily true. If no terms were established between the photographer and the band at the time that pictures were supplied, then the photographer could indeed lose out because no restrictions or terms were made explicit or agreed upon.

It seems in this case, that's exactly what happened.

If the photographer had made arrangements with the band, and the picture ends up on your desk, then the band could be using it outside of those terms. That's the difference.

The photographer may have allowed the band to use the picture for all types of reproduction, on the condition that he has full accreditation in every instance. Publishing said picture without the credit would be in breach of those terms.

So what does it mean for the enthusiast or small town music photographer? Probably jack. Does he refuse to take pics of the band again (are they that bothered)? Does he demand they don't use it again or remove it from the web (what'll he do if they don't)? Does he throw a tantrum at the media for publishing (they'll just shrug their shoulders and say sorry)? I doubt any type of legal action will be productive, effective, or resolve anything just to prove a point (like, what is the point?).

Until a photographer gets a reputation and builds up a respectable client base, it all comes down to an element of trust and respect that is binding, and puts a photographer in a difficult situation (i.e. the underdog) if it's broken. Don't you just hate that!


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thebrewer
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Sep 28, 2007 09:41 |  #32

narlus wrote in post #4019074 (external link)
i'm not too worried about the reprints...they seem more focused on areas like restaurants wanting to hang a Globe review in their building. can't imagine that people order reprints of live show reviews.

that photo was printed from a jpg anyway, not a high-res/full-sized TIFF file.

I don't think that you are missing out on reprint sales as there is a limited market .

I guess I am the only one that see some irony in the fact that they are willing to sell prints of something that they do not own the rights to. I suspect they would have a different opinion on the matter if you were selling reprints of their work.

Rich




  
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lakiluno
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Sep 28, 2007 10:36 |  #33

Giving a CD to a band does not give them any right to do anything with them. If you think that simply giving a photo to someone gives them rights attached to that photo, then I hope you won't mind when I go to your website, "request" photos from the webserver, and have them "given" to me. In law, simply receiving that photo doesn't give me the right to do anything with it.

Perhaps a verbal contract was established at the time of the giving. If the rights of the band weren't established clearly at the time of the gift, then complications may arise. If the band claim you gave them copyright, without a written contract it would be harder to legally claim compensation. However, I don't know that much about the US copyright system, so I have no idea whether you'd have a case - a lawyer would do that for you.

However, I personally would think that the copyright belongs to you. Based on the circulation of the globe (external link) you should send them a bill and see if they pay it. I have no idea of what kind of money that would be, but perhaps someone with experience of a similar sized paper would?


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amonline
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Sep 28, 2007 10:55 |  #34

^ That's what I said... but I wouldn't worry about anything verbal. It will not hold water in court. ;) It sounds like you never gave any rights in your OP anyway.




  
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taygull
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Sep 28, 2007 12:05 |  #35

lakiluno wrote in post #4025399 (external link)
I hope you won't mind when I go to your website, "request" photos from the webserver, and have them "given" to me. In law, simply receiving that photo doesn't give me the right to do anything with it.

A web server can't give "anything", you know that.

The point that will come up in court will be was Narlus given "consideration" for the images he provided. By his statement he did, it is not our fault the consideration was only a signed CD.

At the time consideration was given to the band did the images come with any limitations assigned to them, it appears there was not.

Also don't forget if the paper used the image in editorial and they did not acquire the image through an illegal action then you would have difficult time getting anywhere.


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bacchanal
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Sep 28, 2007 14:40 as a reply to  @ taygull's post |  #36

Hmm...this thread is getting interesting. FWIW, I give my photos away all the time (I'm a pro at giving stuff away!), but when I do I always send a note to the performer stating usage conditions (CC non-commercial, no-derivs, and photo credit). I specifically state that myspace and web gallery use is permitted, but to contact me for any other type of use or for printing. I'm not sure if this makes any sense legally (at this point I don't really care), but it least if makes the recipient aware of me as the photographer!:confused: Now that I'm probably going to change my workflow over to lightroom, I think I'll make a habit of adding IPTC data as well...seems like a pretty good idea.


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narlus
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Sep 28, 2007 15:30 |  #37

taygull, does this mean that i can post the band's songs, from the cd i received, on my website and allow downloading?

they weren't explicit about this.


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thebrewer
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Sep 28, 2007 15:55 |  #38

narlus wrote in post #4027040 (external link)
taygull, does this mean that i can post the band's songs, from the cd i received, on my website and allow downloading?

they weren't explicit about this.

Well, they were "given consideration" :rolleyes:

The little booklet in the cd is probably quite clear about the terms of the license and most likely prohibits public performance, redistribution etc.

However you did not receive consideration from and have no agreement with the paper and they feel ok in redistributing your work. Just for fun you should inquire about purchasing a copy of you photo and ask what their terms are.

Rich




  
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taygull
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Sep 28, 2007 17:22 |  #39

thebrewer wrote in post #4027198 (external link)
Well, they were "given consideration" :rolleyes:

The little booklet in the cd is probably quite clear about the terms of the license and most likely prohibits public performance, redistribution etc.

However you did not receive consideration from and have no agreement with the paper and they feel ok in redistributing your work. Just for fun you should inquire about purchasing a copy of you photo and ask what their terms are.

Rich

The image was provided by the band, who it is at least arguable and most likely would win in a court case. In their mind they could use the images.

The paper did nothing wrong, they published an image provided to them by a subject they were doing a story on. The band (or so they believed) have the right to use the images that they "paid" for.

Narlus you know you can't use material off a cd......think of a better example.


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bacchanal
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Sep 28, 2007 20:15 |  #40

taygull wrote in post #4027687 (external link)
The image was provided by the band, who it is at least arguable and most likely would win in a court case. In their mind they could use the images.

The paper did nothing wrong, they published an image provided to them by a subject they were doing a story on. The band (or so they believed) have the right to use the images that they "paid" for.

Narlus you know you can't use material off a cd......think of a better example.

This still isn't completely logical. Ignorance (the paper not knowing the copyright owner), and the band believing they have rights doesn't equate to having the right to distribute or publish. At some point the law has to default to something. Does any form of payment equate to transferring copyright or usage rights if there is no contract involved? Or does the copyright owner still control the rights to usage if there is no contract involved? If I had to guess...I would imagine if something like this were to go to court (which is a bit ridiculous...but for arguments sake) the copyright owner could possibly "win", but it would be next to impossible to collect any damages.

Also, the cd example is somewhat logical. The end user's knowledge isn't necessarily a legal factor. The RIAA has been somewhat successful in court (and more successful getting people to settle), many of whom probably didn't realize that they were doing something "illegal".


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taygull
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Sep 28, 2007 20:45 |  #41

The CD logic is impossible as it has copyright statements on it.

I work full time for a magazine, I'm pretty familiar with what publishers can and can't do.

Here is probably how things transpired....

Narlus - Hey band I've got some great photos

Band - Cool we'd sure like to have some

Narlus - Sure no big deal here is a CD, can I get aone of your CD's signed?

Band - Sure here you go.

Narlus - Thanks man....

Newspaper - Hello Band we'd like to do a story on you.

Band - Sure we'd like that too

Newspaper - We will have a writer contact you

Writer - Hey band <many questions asked>, since we are all done now do you guys have any pictures we can use in the article?

Band - Sure here are some

Writer - Thanks

Newspaper Editor - Hey band thanks for all the info, the story looks great it will run in a couple weeks. Oh, with respect to the images is it OK to run these? Do you own these.

Band - Yea, we own them <some guy gave them to us for a CD>

Narlus - Damn! Look those are my pictures in the newspaper!

That is pretty much standard in the industry, a quality publisher/editor will ask if it is OK to run the images the subject has provided. The band is pretty much ignorant to any copyright rules that exist with us photographers, you'd think not but 98% of the people out there have no clue the rights we have.

The moral of the story is if you feel you don't want your work to get used by someone you give images to then you probably should spell out the usage in writing.

My rule of thumb is if I give out images on a CD then they can do ANYTHING they want and I can't cry over split milk when they show up somewhere else being used by the person(s) you gave them to.

You can not and should not ever think someone is going to look out for your best interest.


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René ­ Damkot
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Sep 29, 2007 08:18 |  #42

taygull wrote in post #4028680 (external link)
My rule of thumb is if I give out images on a CD then they can do ANYTHING they want and I can't cry over split milk when they show up somewhere else being used by the person(s) you gave them to.

I'ld think that depends on what useage you state with the CD:

narlus wrote in post #4003637 (external link)
i gave 'em some jpgs to put on their myspace page.

If this was clearly stated somewhere (Like a © notice on the CD, and a 'for MySpace use only' or whatever) I'ld say they can't do 'anything' with it...

That's one of the reasons my IPTC states: "For all publication, permission of the photographer is needed, and the stating of his name is compulsory"...

Also, if I put some images online, and notify a band of that, I send something in the lines of: "The photo's I took at *****, are online here:
URL
Copyright of the images stays with me, so if you would be interested in using any for web or other purposes, please contact me for usage rates."

I would think that would have me covered?


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taygull
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Sep 29, 2007 08:37 |  #43

René Damkot wrote in post #4030917 (external link)
I'ld think that depends on what useage you state with the CD:


If this was clearly stated somewhere (Like a © notice on the CD, and a 'for MySpace use only' or whatever) I'ld say they can't do 'anything' with it...

That's one of the reasons my IPTC states: "For all publication, permission of the photographer is needed, and the stating of his name is compulsory"...

Also, if I put some images online, and notify a band of that, I send something in the lines of: "The photo's I took at *****, are online here:
URL
Copyright of the images stays with me, so if you would be interested in using any for web or other purposes, please contact me for usage rates."

I would think that would have me covered?

Yep, you'd be covered.

You can't just spell out usage in a verbal agreement, it just won't work. I'd also suspect you'd need more than the IPTC data in a court of law.

The moral of the story is if you don't want your images to be used then when you give them out you better have something in writing.


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narlus
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Sep 29, 2007 09:23 |  #44

taygull wrote in post #4027687 (external link)
The image was provided by the band, who it is at least arguable and most likely would win in a court case. In their mind they could use the images.

The paper did nothing wrong, they published an image provided to them by a subject they were doing a story on. The band (or so they believed) have the right to use the images that they "paid" for.

Narlus you know you can't use material off a cd......think of a better example.

in the end, though, it does speak to the same sort of copyright and distribution issues, doesn't it?

i'm certainly not going to sue the band or pursue anything of that nonsense, and i don't think they acted in malice. it just would have been nice to get credit where credit is due. when the Globe put 'File Photo' as the source, i wonder what file they thought it was coming from? typically that would imply theirs, right? i would figure that at least they would ask about an image's provenance before they use it, so they are not abetting copyright infringement, no? what's the typical practice for papers and mags w/ issues such as this?


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Sep 29, 2007 16:02 |  #45

I had a similar situation that actually evolved differently...

I got some excellent pics of South Side Johnny And The Asbury Jukes, ( they often perform and share band members with Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen)...

Their Agent writes to me every time they want to use my pictures, for my approval... Most recently a major Southern New Jersey and Philadelphia area newspaper was writing a big article on them and he was at a frenzy to get the best pics out to them... After a few emails and phone # exchanges, he got them in on time... I obviously was to get credit for the pics...

The paper decided to skip our pics and went with old generic file photos from 1996... Why? because they included Southside Johnny on stage with Bon Jovi and "The Boss"...

So after all of the urgent preparations by us getting our newest and best pics out to them, the paper made the final call...

The Agent assures me there will be more need for my photos in the near future...


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i got published in today's Boston Globe!
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