Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 12 Nov 2007 (Monday) 23:30
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

College: Film photography

 
Azzure_7
Goldmember
Avatar
1,102 posts
Joined Nov 2006
Location: Austin, TX. Singapore, Bogor, Indonesia.
     
Nov 14, 2007 13:52 as a reply to  @ post 4306001 |  #46

Craigslist.
Bought one frm adorama (a reputable dealer) but still you won't know the condition of the camera when it's used.
I ended up returning it.
I'd say craigslist is the best bet as you can see the condition of the camera.


flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
JohnJ80
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,442 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Oct 2006
     
Nov 14, 2007 14:27 |  #47

I see your point, but it reminds me of those that went just before me in electrical engineering schools. Those guys had to learn all about vacuum tubes and then moved on to semiconductors as circuit elements. My class learned all about semiconductors, and then they showed us a tube and said "it's sort of like a FET" and that was about it.

While I understand that film is still used, the amount that it is used drops significantly and dramatically each year. I'd bet that it won't be long and it will be similar to my vacuum tube analogy. I'm not sure the educator's decision isn't driven by much more than Tradition rather than technology and practicality.

J.


Obsessive Gear List
"It isn't what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that isn't so." - Mark Twain

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
viperx27
Senior Member
305 posts
Joined Aug 2007
     
Nov 14, 2007 14:29 |  #48
bannedPermanent ban

JohnJ80 wrote in post #4315706 (external link)
I see your point, but it reminds me of those that went just before me in electrical engineering schools. Those guys had to learn all about vacuum tubes and then moved on to semiconductors as circuit elements. My class learned all about semiconductors, and then they showed us a tube and said "it's sort of like a FET" and that was about it.

While I understand that film is still used, the amount that it is used drops significantly and dramatically each year. I'd bet that it won't be long and it will be similar to my vacuum tube analogy. I'm not sure the educator's decision isn't driven by much more than Tradition rather than technology and practicality.

J.

doesn't matter ow much its used in general, there will always be a client that prefers it and its a shame to lose a job to not knowing a basic principle, and even then its still a better medium to learn on as you learn faster and learn more about the art




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
glowie
Senior Member
Avatar
888 posts
Joined Feb 2006
Location: NYC
     
Nov 14, 2007 14:48 |  #49

If you like Organic looking, life like images go with Film.
If you like plasticky, over processed images go with digital.

ducks and hides.


.....::....:..:..:::.:​:....:::..::....:.:.::​:....
>glowie loves you (external link)
>my Flickr (external link)
•The Anti-HDR Movement• (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JackProton
Goldmember
Avatar
2,348 posts
Joined Feb 2007
     
Nov 14, 2007 15:00 |  #50

JohnJ80 wrote in post #4315706 (external link)
While I understand that film is still used, the amount that it is used drops significantly and dramatically each year. I'd bet that it won't be long and it will be similar to my vacuum tube analogy. I'm not sure the educator's decision isn't driven by much more than Tradition rather than technology and practicality.

If it helps, just think of it like being taught to fight with a katana while blind-folded rather than just being handed a machine gun. :) Its the process and techniques that are beging taught, not the technology.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Lacks_focus
Goldmember
Avatar
1,025 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2006
Location: Coventry, CT
     
Nov 14, 2007 15:55 |  #51

JohnJ80 wrote in post #4315706 (external link)
My class learned all about semiconductors, and then they showed us a tube and said "it's sort of like a FET" and that was about it.

Then you missed out on some neat, and still quite relevant, technology. Same analogy... You're probably looking at an LCD monitor to read this, but many CRTs still exist and are sold (there are many types of vacuum tubes and not all are “sort of like a FET”)… Not to mention the current use of vacuum tubes in high end musical instrument amps and audio equipment. Why? Headroom. Much like film and its better dynamic range, digital electronics, although fantastic, still can't produce the results a good tube amp can. Just depends on your use / needs.


1D MKIII | FujiFilm X10 | 24-70 f/2.8 | 70-200 f/2.8 | 135 f/2 | 85 f/1.8 | 580EX |
lacks-focus.smugmug.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DStanic
Cream of the Crop
6,148 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Oct 2007
Location: Canada
     
Nov 14, 2007 21:56 |  #52

I can totally see how learning a SLR film camera makes more sense than a DSLR camera. I DSLR is really half new and half old technology combined. Digital sensor mixed with a mirror to see through a viewfinder... that might confuse alot of digital P&S'ers when it comes down to how a (d)SLR is designed and it's function. If the class was "learn Canon S3 IS" then yeah who gives a crap about film it's pretty irrevilant IMO.

Now I'm no expert on film cameras, I'm only 24 but I've played around with my fully manual Minolta X9 before I ever got my hands on a digtal camera. I can't really say I've taken many fantastic shots with it (perhaps the kit lens has something to do with it?) but I can take a better shot than most P&S film cameras anyhow.

I say enjoy the world of fully manual film SLRs! When my H5 was in the shop I got some batterys for my Minolta (left it turned on for a couple years..lol) and took some nice macro shots with beautiful bokah even with the cheap lens on it.


Sony A6000, 16-50PZ, 55-210, 35mm 1.8 OSS
Canon 60D, 30D
Tamron 28-75 2.8, Tamron 17-35, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 85mm 1.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JohnJ80
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,442 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Oct 2006
     
Nov 14, 2007 22:07 |  #53

JackProton wrote in post #4315894 (external link)
If it helps, just think of it like being taught to fight with a katana while blind-folded rather than just being handed a machine gun. :) Its the process and techniques that are beging taught, not the technology.

Exactly right. That is where digital excels in a much shorter turn around time to see the result and understand how you got there.

I'm not a film novice - I've shot with it for 25 years before I went all digital. I had my own darkroom and processed my own film (now in boxes in the basement). I'd have to say the pace at which I am learning photography and improving (no matter how good you are you are always learning with this) has increased since digital became so mainstream.

Based on the tight feedback loop - would it not be faster and a way to cut the learning curve to learn the basics digitally and then turn around and learn film?

I really do feel that this idea of "start with film first" is more a legacy issue than a genuine educational benefit.

J.


Obsessive Gear List
"It isn't what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that isn't so." - Mark Twain

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DStanic
Cream of the Crop
6,148 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Oct 2007
Location: Canada
     
Nov 14, 2007 22:54 |  #54

JohnJ80 wrote in post #4318114 (external link)
Based on the tight feedback loop - would it not be faster and a way to cut the learning curve to learn the basics digitally and then turn around and learn film?

I really do feel that this idea of "start with film first" is more a legacy issue than a genuine educational benefit.

J.

I think you may be right. When I was first shooting with my Minolta SLR, I'd hit the button to read the meter and adjust the shutter propertly but I'd usually keep the aperature and the lowest setting (why?... I didn't know at the time!). When I got my H5- although not a DSLR, it's the next best thing. I can go all out manual with the camera, and I shoot in Aperature priority mode 90% of the time. After playing around and learning the manual settings on the H5 for a year now I was able to pick up the Minolta and understand what aperature, shutter, ISO, etc is exactly and how I can take better pictures with it now. Unfortunatly, the price of film and developing far exceeds the price of digital so I doubt I will be playing around with it much- but hey, if I ever take a photography class and need an SLR I'm set!! lol


Sony A6000, 16-50PZ, 55-210, 35mm 1.8 OSS
Canon 60D, 30D
Tamron 28-75 2.8, Tamron 17-35, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 85mm 1.8

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JackProton
Goldmember
Avatar
2,348 posts
Joined Feb 2007
     
Nov 14, 2007 23:08 |  #55

JohnJ80 wrote in post #4318114 (external link)
Exactly right. That is where digital excels in a much shorter turn around time to see the result and understand how you got there.
...
Based on the tight feedback loop - would it not be faster and a way to cut the learning curve to learn the basics digitally and then turn around and learn film?

It might seem so but how many people actually save and study the mistakes rather than immediately deleting them from their digital camera's memory? The immediate feedback from digital cameras can be too much like training wheels for beginners. Rather than carefully looking and thinking first then shooting, digital cameras tend to encourage beginners to just keep shooting and shooting until they get something interesting. Once beginners get into the habit of really looking and thinking about the shot before hand, digital can be a great help but, until then, I think it tends to encourage a point-n-shoot type of style.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
JohnJ80
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,442 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Oct 2006
     
Nov 14, 2007 23:29 |  #56

JackProton wrote in post #4318423 (external link)
It might seem so but how many people actually save and study the mistakes rather than immediately deleting them from their digital camera's memory? The immediate feedback from digital cameras can be too much like training wheels for beginners. Rather than carefully looking and thinking first then shooting, digital cameras tend to encourage beginners to just keep shooting and shooting until they get something interesting. Once beginners get into the habit of really looking and thinking about the shot before hand, digital can be a great help but, until then, I think it tends to encourage a point-n-shoot type of style.

The "carefully looking and thinking first" is a discipline that has absolutely nothing to do with either film OR digital. You are right that it is an essential skill if not THE essential skill. Teaching that has nothing to do with the medium. In a college curriculum, one could presume teaching the "looking and thinking" is a function that the instructor would provide.

Even then, the shorter the feedback loop, the faster the learning. I'd think then if one finds some desirable characteristics to film, then the results would be better, with less time in learning, and less money invested.

J.


Obsessive Gear List
"It isn't what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that isn't so." - Mark Twain

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
tonylong
...winded
Avatar
54,657 posts
Gallery: 60 photos
Likes: 546
Joined Sep 2007
Location: Vancouver, WA USA
     
Nov 15, 2007 02:10 |  #57

This is interesting.

Afew years ago, there was an active discussion about film vs digital, the most volatile discussion being between MF users vs DSLR users -- and, believe it or not, there was serious disagreement as to whether DSLR pics would challenge MF pics.

Now we have MF digital cameras with, what? 30mp resolution. Plus, we have ff cameras with 21 megapixels!

More and more, I hear film photographers are moving to digital.

So, how many film photographers out there have used the current digital cameras, and decided that film is actually better?


Tony
Two Canon cameras (5DC, 30D), three Canon lenses (24-105, 100-400, 100mm macro)
Tony Long Photos on PBase (external link)
Wildlife project pics here (external link), Biking Photog shoots here (external link), "Suburbia" project here (external link)! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics here (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ebann
Once an ugly duckling
Avatar
3,396 posts
Joined Jan 2003
Location: Chimping around Brazil since 1973! (Sometimes NYC)
     
Nov 15, 2007 03:31 |  #58

Fast feedback and settings used recorded on the digital image are the two reasons why I went digital... and you're right, it provides faster learning. Film is for nostalgia reasons and proof that one actually knows how to take pictures, if shot manual!


Ellery Bann
Fuji X100
6D | Rokinon 14 2.8 | 50 1.4
1D Mk IV | 24-70 2.8L | 70-200 2.8L IS | 135 2L | 400 5.6L

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kitacanon
Goldmember
4,706 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 35
Joined Sep 2006
Location: West Palm Beach
     
Nov 15, 2007 07:26 |  #59

JackProton wrote in post #4318423 (external link)
It might seem so but how many people actually save and study the mistakes rather than immediately deleting them from their digital camera's memory? The immediate feedback from digital cameras can be too much like training wheels for beginners. Rather than carefully looking and thinking first then shooting, digital cameras tend to encourage beginners to just keep shooting and shooting until they get something interesting. Once beginners get into the habit of really looking and thinking about the shot before hand, digital can be a great help but, until then, I think it tends to encourage a point-n-shoot type of style.

My first SLR hand no light meter...I just had a small hand held meter and kept a record of each exposure of the 1st 3 rolls...by then I understood light enuf to leave the meter home and knew exposure by sight and feel within a half-stop...light's pretty consistent, and I could sense the change while I was shooting and could adjust to minor variations as I shot...did not have a meter until I was 'giifted' a Nikon501 by a Nikon tech in Japan 25 years later.


My Canon kit 450D/s90; Canon lenses 18-55 IS, 70-210/3.5-4.5....Nikon kit: D610; 28-105/3.5-4.5, 75-300/4.5-5.6 AF, 50/1.8D Nikkors, Tamron 80-210; MF Nikkors: 50/2K, 50/1.4 AI-S, 50/1.8 SeriesE, 60/2.8 Micro Nikkor (AF locked), 85mm/1.8K-AI, 105/2.5 AIS/P.C, 135/2.8K/Q.C, 180/2.8 ED, 200/4Q/AIS, 300/4.5H-AI, ++ Tamron 70-210/3.8-4, Vivitar/Kiron 28/2, ser.1 70-210/3.5, ser.1 28-90; Vivitar/Komine and Samyang 28/2.8; 35mm Nikon F/FM/FE2, Rebel 2K...HTC RE UWA camera

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
T.Hogan
Senior Member
Avatar
309 posts
Likes: 1
Joined May 2006
Location: North Alabama
     
Nov 15, 2007 07:34 |  #60

In some of todays colleges, you are still required to shoot and develope black and white along with color. Also to use MF, which teaches (hopefully) to see the final image before the shutter is tripped.


7d gripped, canon 10-22. canon 50 1.4, canon 135L, Mamiya equipment.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

6,597 views & 0 likes for this thread
College: Film photography
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is nightshade_2k
894 guests, 317 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.