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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 27 Apr 2008 (Sunday) 00:25
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New 5D-what the heck!!!!

 
Wilt
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Apr 27, 2008 11:54 |  #31

limeydal wrote in post #5411501 (external link)
Well took my new 5D on it's first shoot covering sailing events in San Diego Bay.!
Yuk ! what the heck is going on.
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5D with 28-300L I.S.

My "bread and butter "shots all came out as though they were at least 2 stops under exposed.
Normaly with my 20D I shoot in Shutter priority/partial metering, as the majority are sail boats against a blue sky.
Everything sucked! Looks as though I was shooting at night!
The shot below iso 100 1/640 f10 at 65mm
Usually I "nail" these with the 20D. Whats going on ?
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Even the ones that were salvagable for exposure ,looked fuzzy and not at all sharp :oops: Also even at moderate zoom range I was getting vignetting;
HELP!!!!!!!!
Dal vmad

Always keep the Sunny 16 rule of bright sun exposure in your head, and you will recognize bad settings before you even take a single exposure....
ISO 100 was your setting, so 1/100 f/16 is the Sunny 16 rule, so you would have known immediately that 1/640 f/10 is not right, but 1/200 f/11 is right.

Partial metering of the sails is the reason for the bad exposure.

For shooting sailing scenes (not being on same boat as closeups of action), I agree about the approach of Manual when in the bright sunlight. (BTW I have crewed racing boats and owned sailboats for 30 years.) You are exposing the scene and the light which is falling on the overall scene is not changing. So exposing to the inherent brightness of the light falling on the scene means one exposure setting, period. No need for perpetual metering on a white sai and using EC+1. The scene is boats on the water in bright sunlight, period.

If I were shooting action on the boat I was on, then I would be altering exposure as people go in and out of shadows cast by the sails onto the local (on boat) scene.


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Apr 27, 2008 11:54 |  #32

Practice manual. When I went out to take some pictures of birdies, I had the settings at 1/400 F/5.6 ISO 100. So whether I was pointing to the bright sky, or towards some darker water or grass, the exposure never changed. If its a partly cloudy day, you'll have to be on your toes though.


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JohnJ80
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Apr 27, 2008 12:21 |  #33

Wilt wrote in post #5413557 (external link)
Always keep the Sunny 16 rule of bright sun exposure in your head, and you will recognize bad settings before you even take a single exposure....
ISO 100 was your setting, so 1/100 f/16 is the Sunny 16 rule, so you would have known immediately that 1/640 f/10 is not right, but 1/200 f/11 is right.

Partial metering of the sails is the reason for the bad exposure.

For shooting sailing scenes (not being on same boat as closeups of action), I agree about the approach of Manual when in the bright sunlight. (BTW I have crewed racing boats and owned sailboats for 30 years.) You are exposing the scene and the light which is falling on the overall scene is not changing. So exposing to the inherent brightness of the light falling on the scene means one exposure setting, period. No need for perpetual metering on a white sai and using EC+1. The scene is boats on the water in bright sunlight, period.

If I were shooting action on the boat I was on, then I would be altering exposure as people go in and out of shadows cast by the sails onto the local (on boat) scene.

Ditto here - owned boats for 30 years and race them extensively (J80 is my boat, btw). We live on the water and shoot weekly if not daily during the summer.

Disagree otherwise although it certainly isn't a case of only one way works.


J.


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CyberDyneSystems
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Apr 27, 2008 12:34 |  #34

Kruzkal wrote in post #5411634 (external link)
Partial metering + white subject -> dark overall image.

Use a different metering mode maybe?

Alternatively use exposure compensation or manual. Take a look at your histogram after each shot. Adjust accordingly.

I shoot partial metering most of the time as my subjects tend to be a small part of the overall image,
This is a common trap and mistake.. and you hit the nail on the head.

Those white sails are reflecting a lot of light, and pushed the exposure down.
The OP essentially spot metered a bright white spot.

Histogram is your friend, learn to use it and understand it.
And ANY time you shoot partial in daylight, start with at least +2/3 EC, if not more...

Wilt's got one solution to this particular situation though. A Manual setting, and then keep an eye on things as the day progresses, cloud cover changes etc.

I think I'd shoot evaluative metering and look at the histogram a lot and bracket..


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Blue ­ S2
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Apr 27, 2008 12:46 |  #35

Yeah, this is why I recommend manual shooting mode to most people.

Decide on what is most importat, shutter speed or aperature (or both sometimes) and set the one where you want it/need it. Then meter from somewhere you know consistent and adjust your settings appropriately.

In this case, I would have selected a shutter speed between 1/250 and 1/500 to stop movement and then metered off the blue sky or the white sails. Having white is easy, anything I generally want "white" whether it be an interior wall or a sail in this case would be between 1 and 2 stops over a neutral reading. Adjust your settings and shoot away!

On land, I meter from grass at 1 stop under generally. Evenings I meter of a clear sky to about neutral. Cities, meter from black pavement between 2 and 3 stops under depending on the light, etc... I never rely on an automatic mode or "exposure compensation." I'de rather know im getting it right, than assuming the camera will get it right.


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Wilt
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Apr 27, 2008 13:02 |  #36

Metering off the blue sky is certainly a very easy way to deal with a water scene...I just took an incident meter and with ISO 250, 1/250, it read f/16 +0.3EV. Metering the blue sky with my 40D resulted in the same exposure (ISO 250, 1/250 f/18 ).


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liam5100
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Apr 27, 2008 14:14 |  #37

Kruzkal wrote in post #5411634 (external link)
Partial metering + white subject -> dark overall image.

Use a different metering mode maybe?

Alternatively use exposure compensation or manual. Take a look at your histogram after each shot. Adjust acordingly.

Thats exactly what happened. Thats why all I use is M.


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echo
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Apr 27, 2008 14:20 |  #38

I learnt the hard way to get to know new gear before doing an important shoot. Hope it works out for you, the 5D is very good :)


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JWright
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Apr 27, 2008 14:25 as a reply to  @ liam5100's post |  #39

I think what the OP is experiencing is the learning curve associated with a new camera. Not having one, I can't speak for the metering in the 5D versus the 20D.

What I can attest to is that the OP is a very accomplished photographer whose work is good enough for the San Diego Maritime Museum to give him a one-man show and illustrate their 2008 calendar with his images. (I have one hanging in my office.) I'm sure once he gets used to the camera he will do just fine with it.


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versedmb
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Apr 27, 2008 14:56 |  #40

Kruzkal wrote in post #5411634 (external link)
Partial metering + white subject -> dark overall image.
.

Yea, I think that's your problem; just like shooting snow - the camera is trying to make the white 18% grey.


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totalbeginner
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Apr 27, 2008 17:00 as a reply to  @ versedmb's post |  #41

You see, that is exactly the problem when shooting sailing. The light does change quite dramatically on the boat as it moves in relation to the sun and pitching due to the sea state. The sails can cast large shadows over the boat, or be quite dark in one orientation and then completely the opposite in another orientation. It can happen even with relatively small shifts in the trim of the sails or quickly when the boat tacks. So, it really isn't a static lighting situation.

It's the ambient light that's important, not reflected light. Yes, the reflected light might change as ths boat dips in and out of the shade, but this is what can fool the meter. If you shoot in manual, and check the histogram to make sure that the brightest part isn't burnt out, you can't go wrong. If the whole boat dips into the shade, then it will be recorded as such. If the camera is in charge of the S/S for example, and the frame is filled with shade, it will tend to overexpose as it attempts to record 18% grey. Likewise, if the frame is full of a bright white sail, it will under expose for The same reason.

Give manual a go, I think you'll be surprised!

Also, do you press the A/E lock while you're metering? If not, the camera will continue to change either the aperutre of S/S values as you re-compose. This could make quite a difference.


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Hogloff
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Apr 27, 2008 18:26 |  #42
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Paul Pagano wrote in post #5412495 (external link)
Higher end cameras usually meter a little darker so as not to blow out whites and lose detail. Cameras meter for middle gray, some a bit darker than others. Most amateurs don't care if they shoot white in sunlight and cannot see details in the white...they never notice. These bodies also expect that you'll be post processing and want more control over your images. Pattern metering will only cause the overall scene to be a bit darker than if evaluative metering was used.

Is there any truth to this or are you just making things up as you go along. Please point me towards where this is described in some kind of Canon white paper.




  
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Permagrin
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Apr 27, 2008 18:28 as a reply to  @ Hogloff's post |  #43

do you really think Canon's white papers are going to say "our cameras meter darker than they should?"

It's pretty common knowledge...you hear about it all the time around here, and most people who've used them know that you need to compensate for the under exposure.


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Wilt
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Apr 27, 2008 18:46 |  #44

Permagrin wrote in post #5415654 (external link)
do you really think Canon's white papers are going to say "our cameras meter darker than they should?"

It's pretty common knowledge...you hear about it all the time around here, and most people who've used them know that you need to compensate for the under exposure.

It is interesting that these accusations develop and persist, yet the evidence which I wrote in an earlier message stated, "Metering off the blue sky is certainly a very easy way to deal with a water scene...I just took an incident meter and with ISO 250, 1/250, it read f/16 +0.3EV. Metering the blue sky with my 40D resulted in the same exposure (ISO 250, 1/250 f/18 )."


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Permagrin
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Apr 27, 2008 18:51 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #45

Wilt I'm not sure what your point was..my 40D underexposes just as much as my 5D did, or my MIII does or my 30D did.....and like I said, we've spoken to many canon reps who've also said that the canon cameras do tend to underexpose.

I'm not making accusations. I'm simply stating, every canon camera I've ever owned (I've also owned the 30D and Mk2n as well), in varying degrees, tends to underexpose. One just learns to work around it.


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