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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 27 Apr 2008 (Sunday) 00:25
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New 5D-what the heck!!!!

 
Paul ­ Pagano
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Apr 27, 2008 18:57 |  #46

Hogloff wrote in post #5415638 (external link)
Is there any truth to this or are you just making things up as you go along. Please point me towards where this is described in some kind of Canon white paper.

Sorry I can't give you written verification from Canon...but I can speak from experience. And trying several of Canon's offerings....oh, and I've shot Pentax and Nikon too....lower end cams just seem to overexpose a bit.


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totalbeginner
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Apr 27, 2008 18:58 as a reply to  @ post 5415759 |  #47

Metering the blue sky with my 40D resulted in the same exposure (ISO 250, 1/250 f/18 )."

That's because the meter only had one tone to work with (the blue sky). I think the differences that people are talking about refer to how different cameras assymilate the data when using evaluative metering.

Of course, when using the spot meter, you should expect the same result irrespective of the camera type.


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airfrogusmc
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Apr 27, 2008 19:00 as a reply to  @ post 5415759 |  #48

I use the spot meter and manual only and I've never had a problem with exposure. I have two 5Ds...

Easy way...if you and the palm of you hand are in the same light as the subject put the camera in spot mode meter your palm open a stop and make an exposure. If your had was tilted at the about the same angle as the subject and in the same light you should be right on the money. I would have read the sails and opened two stops. And as long as the light remains the same your exposures should hold detail in the sails and unless a cloud comes along you should be right on. Or do what Wilt said read the blue sky and use that reading. Should put ya close.

Hard way......would be use the spot meter to get the full dynamic range and make your decision from that info. Find the darkest shadow and highest highlight and figure which is important had adjust you exposure accordingly.




  
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JWright
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Apr 27, 2008 19:05 as a reply to  @ totalbeginner's post |  #49

Permagrin wrote in post #5415654 (external link)
do you really think Canon's white papers are going to say "our cameras meter darker than they should?"

It's pretty common knowledge...you hear about it all the time around here, and most people who've used them know that you need to compensate for the under exposure.

Paul Pagano wrote in post #5415817 (external link)
Sorry I can't give you written verification from Canon...but I can speak from experience. And trying several of Canon's offerings....oh, and I've shot Pentax and Nikon too....lower end cams just seem to overexpose a bit.

Interesting because I've always carried a constant 1/3 stop of underexposure on my 20D. This is a safeguard against blown highlights, which I seemed to have a problem with until I started underexposing.


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Permagrin
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Apr 27, 2008 19:07 |  #50

airfrogusmc wrote in post #5415836 (external link)
I use the spot meter and manual only and I've never had a problem with exposure. I have two 5Ds...

Easy way...if you and the palm of you hand are in the same light as the subject put the camera in spot mode meter your palm open a stop and make an exposure. If your had was tilted at the about the same angle as the subject and in the same light you should be right on the money. I would have read the sails and opened two stops. And as long as the light remains the same your exposures should hold detail in the sails and unless a cloud comes along you should be right on. Or do what Wilt said read the blue sky and use that reading. Should put ya close.

Hard way......would be use the spot meter to get the full dynamic range and make your decision from that info. Find the darkest shadow and highest highlight and figure which is important had adjust you exposure accordingly.

I do that too...re: metering and M mode...it works really well at getting the right exposure.

but the OP can't do that and sail at the same time. That's why he was wanting some advice. He did mention that the light doesn't stay the same, which could be a problem with M.


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Permagrin
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Apr 27, 2008 19:08 |  #51

JWright wrote in post #5415862 (external link)
Interesting because I've always carried a constant 1/3 stop of underexposure on my 20D. This is a safeguard against blown highlights, which I seemed to have a problem with until I started underexposing.

lol John...I've never owned the 20D. Interesting to note though. I wonder what's changed...


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Wilt
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Apr 27, 2008 19:14 |  #52

totalbeginner wrote in post #5415822 (external link)
That's because the meter only had one tone to work with (the blue sky). I think the differences that people are talking about refer to how different cameras assymilate the data when using evaluative metering.

Of course, when using the spot meter, you should expect the same result irrespective of the camera type.

My point about blue sky reading vs. an incident reading is a truth of photographic exposure which is decades old, for exposing a scene at the inherent brightness of the lighting falling upon the scene, a principle which completely nullifies all subject brightness problems like brides in white gowns or white sailboat sails. And both metering methodologies are consistent with the Sunny 16 rule of thumb!

The point is that one exposure determination that confirms a second or third exposure method can eliminate much guesswork!

To argue against the validity that I mentioned is a bit like arguing that the Earth is really flat, or that digital has as wide a dynamic range as B&W film. :)


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airfrogusmc
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Apr 27, 2008 19:20 |  #53

Permagrin wrote in post #5415873 (external link)
I do that too...re: metering and M mode...it works really well at getting the right exposure.

but the OP can't do that and sail at the same time. That's why he was wanting some advice. He did mention that the light doesn't stay the same, which could be a problem with M.

If you practice it a bit ya could. I can do it and drive... Its easier with digital, The aperture is by you thumb and the shutter is your index finger. If its a bright sunny day with no clouds it doesn't change that much from say 10 am till 5/6 pm... Use the sunny 16 rule
bright sun
100 ISO 1/125th at f/16....
Slight overcast
1/125 f/11
Overcast
1/125 f/8
Heavy overcast
1/125 f5.6
It'll get ya close...




  
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Blue ­ S2
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Apr 27, 2008 19:35 |  #54

Remember when cameras didn't have meters...and film came with suggestions...


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totalbeginner
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Apr 27, 2008 19:38 as a reply to  @ airfrogusmc's post |  #55

To argue against the validity that I mentioned is a bit like arguing that the Earth is really flat, or that digital has as wide a dynamic range as B&W film. :smile:

I wasn't arguing the validity of your statement.

You said something along the lines of two different cameras coming up with the same exposure when metering off a blue sky.

What I was trying to say, is that this is what we would expect, even when using evaluative metering. Because, irrespective of how the cameras interpret the data from their meter, they're only working with one tone (the blue sky).

People are talking about the differences in exposure from camera to camera when using evaluative metering. What I was getting at, is that this is due to the way in which each camera interprets the data it receives from the meter. What % of dark or white tones influence it's decision, how the frame is divided up into light and dark etc.. (something which the camera companies like to keep secret). If you fill the frame with blue sky, it doesn't have to make any calculations.

This is why I shoot 90% of the time in manual and use the spot meter. I don't have to try and second guess what the camera is thinking. I just meter from tones within a scene that I'm familiar with (such as blue sky, green grass, skin etc...)


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dbdors
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Apr 27, 2008 19:50 |  #56

I would say the partial metering against the sails did you in. The Camera is trying to expose everything to 18% gray. So you likely metered off those bright white sails and the camera did a pretty good job of exposing them as 18% gray. The sail almost look like a nice gray card. As some pointed out, in that case you have to over expose by 2/3.

I bought a nice book years ago about metering: "The Confused Photographers Guide to On Camera Spot-metering". You might want to do some searches for websites on exposure, or check out a few books on exposure.


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tonylong
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Apr 27, 2008 19:59 |  #57

The advantage of using Tv is, of course, that the camera adjusts to changing lighting. This can be helpful in this situation not just from clouds, but from either the shooter's boat or a subject boat changing in respect to the sun -- you could either blow out highlights or get overly dark shadows.

The disadvantage is that you have to pay close attention to what you're metering and adjust your exposure compensation whenever you do get a change of lighting. You have to decide how to handle shadows, changing sky tones and backlighting and adjust accordingly.

The advantage of Manual is, of course, that given consistent lighting, your exposure won't be thrown off by incident lighting changes on your subject, background, etc, and so your images will be consistent for that scene. But, you have to be on your toes whenever the lighting changes, as in when your boat turns into a new direction relative to the sun (and are shooting a scene/subject with new lighting). Again, you have to pay attention to what you are exposing for, and, like in Tv mode, use your thumb wheel to adust your aperture (assuming you want a consistent shutter speed). If you don't do that, the camera will make no automatic adjustments for you and you could lose shots until you catch up.

I think which is "better" is up to the shooter. I've been using Manual mode for a lot of my shooting, especially when I have a scene with consistent lighting. But when I forget to adjust for light changes things can get messy:). My other "normal" shooting mode is aperture priority, which tends to work well with me in outdoor settings with low, changing lighting. I'm still practicing a lot with manual, but I have something to fall back on that works for me:)!

If I were the OP, I'd first of all get the lesson drilled in of how the meter works (and why these pics came out underexposed), so that exposing for say, the sky or white sails or somewhat medium water came automatically no matter what mode you were in. Try this out in both Manual and Tv and see what gives the best results. It's not that the 5D was underexposing per se, but that the 5D was very definitely and obviously rendering those white sails grey. So, if you practice your exposure before your next "real" shoot I think you'll be happy with the results.

As far as RAW vs jpeg is concerned, that's another matter of personal choice. Many shooters with clients who want to see results "right now" opt for jpeg, as you do. However, RAW developing/converting software today is very efficient -- you can make batch development adjustments to exposure, contrast, saturation, white balance and sharpening in just a few clicks and then output jpegs in just a few more clicks. Plus, RAW has better lattitude in recovering both highlights and shadows, so that slipups have a greater chance of being keepers!

Well, OP, you do have a great camera! Get over these "little hurdles" and I think you'll be thrilled!


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Blue ­ S2
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Apr 27, 2008 21:56 |  #58

Its easy enough to open up or close down a stop without thinking much if the scene changes even in manual mode. Actually is probably a lot more accurate to adjust manually and learn how to read a scene and its changing environment.

In this respect i wish I could make my camera move in whole stops, not just half and thirds. That way one click per stop would be super fast adjustment. Oh well.


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wernersl
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Apr 27, 2008 22:23 |  #59

Wilt wrote in post #5413557 (external link)
Always keep the Sunny 16 rule of bright sun exposure in your head, and you will recognize bad settings before you even take a single exposure....
ISO 100 was your setting, so 1/100 f/16 is the Sunny 16 rule, so you would have known immediately that 1/640 f/10 is not right, but 1/200 f/11 is right.

Partial metering of the sails is the reason for the bad exposure.

For shooting sailing scenes (not being on same boat as closeups of action), I agree about the approach of Manual when in the bright sunlight. (BTW I have crewed racing boats and owned sailboats for 30 years.) You are exposing the scene and the light which is falling on the overall scene is not changing. So exposing to the inherent brightness of the light falling on the scene means one exposure setting, period. No need for perpetual metering on a white sai and using EC+1. The scene is boats on the water in bright sunlight, period.

If I were shooting action on the boat I was on, then I would be altering exposure as people go in and out of shadows cast by the sails onto the local (on boat) scene.

damnit...you beat me to it. also, look at the exif from the 20d shot. 1/500 f/7, but your 5d shot was f10 1/640! huge difference. being that there wasnt even a cloud in the sky you should have considered manual exposure. anyway...dont always rely on metering in the camera. it did what it was told to do and that was expose the sails for middle gray. enjoy.


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TheGreatDivorce
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Apr 28, 2008 00:49 |  #60

It's metering in an attempt to make white a neutral grey ... which would technically be a correct exposure. Making white "white" would technically be overexposure.




  
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