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Thread started 28 Jul 2008 (Monday) 22:17
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Could you please not take pictures

 
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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 09:35 |  #166

If they arrest you they need to arrest you and charge you for a crime, taking pictures is not a crime.

Refusing to obey the police orders can be a reason for arrest, AFAIK. So if they ask you to leave and you start pressing your rights you may get arrested. At least here. All of this depends on local laws, too. I think police can detain you for questioning on suspicion - the word "arrest" may not be the right one although to me it seems there's little difference in the outcome.

This argument starts to go in circles and derail from the main point I was trying to make, that arrogant and uncompromising behavior doesn't work most of time, be it an overly paranoid parent or a photographer all worked up over his/her rights. People should respect other people's concerns, even if they don't share them. This is just my opinion and you're entitled to your own.

BTW I love your avatar too, I was trying to remember where I saw this guy ! I work in engineering / manufacturing and there's plenty of people with similar looks and very peculiar traits in this business.


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Chris ­ Dana
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Aug 02, 2008 09:51 |  #167

Amamba wrote in post #6032028 (external link)
I was saying, basically, that there are many ways to prevent someone from taking pictures of children, and a parent determined to do that will. Whether it's shoving your camera in your face and getting arrested, or complaining to police that a stranger with a camera appears to be stalking little kids.

Or the parent could just take their kid and leave. It's not always incumbent on the "evil, nasty, pedophile photographer" to leave.


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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 10:54 |  #168

Chris Dana wrote in post #6032202 (external link)
Or the parent could just take their kid and leave. It's not always incumbent on the "evil, nasty, pedophile photographer" to leave.

Of course. There are many ways in which a confrontation may unfold, however it's best not to have a confrontation in a first place as long as both sides are willing to make a reasonable compromise. You have your rights, they have their concerns, both sides have ways to get what they want, legal and not. The compromise is the best tool in most situations. I think an insensitive arrogant photog chasing after other people's kids with a tele lens is not much better than a paranoid overly protective control freak of a parent. Even though he may have law on his side.. eventually.

Also, it would take only a couple of well publicized cases of child molesters or child pornographers using / abusing this law to have some severe restriction placed on your rights. I mean, the Second amendment crowd has a much better lobby and much more money but their rights are slowly eroding away.


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Twitch1977
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Aug 02, 2008 11:10 |  #169

Refusing to obey the police orders can be a reason for arrest, AFAIK.

The officers cannot ask you to stop taking pictures if you are doing so legally. It's the officers duty to uphold the law and the law says the photographer is in the right.

Of course. There are many ways in which a confrontation may unfold, however it's best not to have a confrontation in a first place as long as both sides are willing to make a reasonable compromise.

From what I gather the result of this 'compromise' in your eyes always seems to be the photographer ceasing taking pictures.

Kurt


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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 11:20 |  #170

Twitch1977 wrote in post #6032527 (external link)
The officers cannot ask you to stop taking pictures if you are doing so legally. It's the officers duty to uphold the law and the law says the photographer is in the right.


Officers know your rights; I was merely pointing to the fact that in certain situations your behavior may give them an excuse to harass you / ask you to leave. Even if you're within your rights. Of course you may sue later.

From what I gather the result of this 'compromise' in your eyes always seems to be the photographer ceasing taking pictures.

Kurt

In case of taking pics of other people's children against their parent's will, yes, as for me this is an ethical rather than legal question. In general, I believe people should simply try to be receptive to other people's rights and concerns alike.


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Chris ­ Dana
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Aug 02, 2008 11:26 |  #171

Amamba wrote in post #6032575 (external link)
In case of taking pics of other people's children against their parent's will, yes, as for me this is an ethical rather than legal question. In general, I believe people should simply try to be receptive to other people's rights and concerns alike.

That's really not a compromise then, is it? In your eyes, the photographer is the one who MUST compromise, not the parents. Do the parents who get annoyed at a photographer taking photos of their child ever let their children out of their sight? If so, far, far worse is likely to happen (from a statistical standpoint) than someone taking photos of their child in a public setting.


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DocFrankenstein
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Aug 02, 2008 11:34 |  #172

Amamba wrote in post #6032137 (external link)
Refusing to obey the police orders can be a reason for arrest, AFAIK.

On a crime scene, maybe.

On the street, when nothng is happening - no.

So if they ask you to leave and you start pressing your rights you may get arrested.

They can ask me to leave. The paranoid parent might ask me to leave. I don't have to obey any of them.

If they arrest me, that's a false arrest and the officers get in trouble for that.

I think police can detain you for questioning on suspicion - the word "arrest" may not be the right one although to me it seems there's little difference in the outcome.

They can't detain you unless they arrest you. And you don't have to answer any questions.

You don't gain the right to remain in silence by being arrested. And something you said BEFORE you got arrested might be used against you in the court of law.

What country are you living in?


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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 11:36 |  #173

Chris Dana wrote in post #6032599 (external link)
That's really not a compromise then, is it? In your eyes, the photographer is the one who MUST compromise, not the parents.

It depends on a situation. I would respect other parents' wishes most times, as long as I am not shooting _my_ children. I would, however, always try to present myself and be polite and go extra step in addressing their concerns - although I don't photograph other people's kids, generally, so I don't get in situations like this. Last year my kids were playing in the park and there was that absolutely adorable little girl with bright red hair and tons of freckles - just a burst of sunshine - I did take her photo but not before talking to her dad, explaining to him why I wanted it, and asking to his permission to take it. And if he'd objected I'd comply as I think this was the right thing to do. But that's just me. Again, I was just expressing my own opinion, - whatever yours may be, I think you should still try to be polite, open and respectful to the concerns other people have. As Amanda very truly noted, children don't have sufficient protection under the current laws in many countries, the law is too slow to catch up with life.


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DocFrankenstein
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Aug 02, 2008 11:38 |  #174

Amamba wrote in post #6032028 (external link)
I was saying, basically, that there are many ways to prevent someone from taking pictures of children, and a parent determined to do that will. Whether it's shoving your camera in your face and getting arrested, or complaining to police that a stranger with a camera appears to be stalking little kids.

Fine. In the first cases I press charges against assault and you replace my camera gear.

In the second option I'll consider slander.


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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 11:46 |  #175

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #6032627 (external link)
On a crime scene, maybe.

On the street, when nothng is happening - no.


They can ask me to leave. The paranoid parent might ask me to leave. I don't have to obey any of them.

If they arrest me, that's a false arrest and the officers get in trouble for that.


They can't detain you unless they arrest you. And you don't have to answer any questions.

You don't gain the right to remain in silence by being arrested. And something you said BEFORE you got arrested might be used against you in the court of law.

What country are you living in?

I live in States. I may be mistaken but I believe that if police have a suspicion of wrongdoing or possible criminal action they can stop you & ask you questions. You may of course sue them for harassment and usually they aren't going to harass you unless they feel that your behavior is indeed suspicious and their actions would stay in court. I don't know how it plays out in real life, however I'd think that if parents complained that a guy with a camera is hanging around the playground taking pics of little children and refusing to give any explanations / getting belligerent this could justify police questioning you, and if you refused to answer these questions you could be detained or asked to leave the park. I also think that if you hanged around the playground long enough you could yourself be charged with harassment, although again I'm not a lawyer. I don't think things are that different in Canada.


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Amamba
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Aug 02, 2008 11:49 |  #176

DocFrankenstein wrote in post #6032636 (external link)
Fine. In the first cases I press charges against assault and you replace my camera gear.

In the second option I'll consider slander.

Actually, if I tell people you're a pedophile this would be slander; if I tell them that I felt your actions were suspicious and I was concerned you may be a pedophile, you have no legal standing, at least in the US, as I am entitled to voice my opinions.


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S.Horton
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Aug 02, 2008 11:54 |  #177

TheHoff wrote in post #6031849 (external link)
You should probably delete your Flickr, Facebook, MySpace, SmugMug, and whatever other accounts you have that may have a photo of your child on it as well.

And what about all of these kids of Macungie Elementary in Macungie, Pennsylvania? Should they feel safe or threatened?

http://midnightblue.sm​ugmug.com …553_7p2FW#30102​5262_pf2jP (external link)

I noticed that you went out of your way to find one unprotected gallery of mine to make your example. That's a cheap shot, Hoff, and you know it.


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mattograph
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Aug 02, 2008 12:05 |  #178

Is there really a point to all this?

Here's the facts. If you are taking pictures of my kids, and I want you to stop, you will stop. I will find a way.

Conversely, if I am taking pictures of your kids, and you want me to stop, I will stop. You will find a way to make me.

It may be cordial, it may get ugly, but its a simple battle of wills. And I will guarantee you the will of the parent to "protect" their child will ALWAYS trump the will of the photographer to take the picture.


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Twitch1977
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Aug 02, 2008 12:05 |  #179

however I'd think that if parents complained that a guy with a camera is hanging around the playground taking pics of little children and refusing to give any explanations / getting belligerent this could justify police questioning you, and if you refused to answer these questions you could be detained or asked to leave the park.

Again, you are mistaken. The police can ask you questions of course, it is up to you to decide if you wish to answer them. The police can ask to see your pictures, it is up to decide if you wish to show them. They can ask you to leave but it is up to you to decide if you want to leave or not.

They CAN arrest you. But when they arrest you they must arrest you for a crime. Not answering their questions or showing them the pictures is NOT a crime. Taking pictures in a public park is NOT a crime.

Kurt


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Jamie ­ Holladay
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Aug 02, 2008 12:11 |  #180

If I were shooting at one of my children's games (soccer of baseball), be it their game or one of the other in the park and a parent asked me not to shoot their child, I would respect their wishes. However, telling me to stop would be a different story. I'd hand them a business card and tell them where they could find the shots to order a print of their child.

Now with my opinion expressed lets get the tone back in line please.


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Could you please not take pictures
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