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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 10 Dec 2008 (Wednesday) 14:17
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Accused of being a paedophile!!!

 
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photoguy6405
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Dec 12, 2008 20:39 |  #346

GSH wrote in post #6867590 (external link)
The OP was in a no-win situation with this woman. Firstly, she used the magic P word and any Police involvement (even at his own request) would have almost certainly seen him becoming acquainted with one of Mr Plod's lovely free hotel rooms.

That's something I keep coming back to... once that line has been crossed, the person accused has just lost. It's not fair or right, but it is.


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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 12, 2008 22:21 |  #347

tiziano wrote in post #6867499 (external link)
One final comment about the post above: I believe that most people reading this thread, will understand (if they don't already know) why law enforcement forces don't want any help from other people.

And what praytell would those reasons be? Why wouldn't the people who regularly use or frequent a particular place be of help in keeping an eye on it?

In this case, why wouldn't the pilots who fly out of a particular airport or the mechanics who work there be of any help?


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thebishopp
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Dec 12, 2008 23:36 |  #348

GSH wrote in post #6867813 (external link)
The term "offensive weapon" can apply to almost anything.


Any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person...A pretty broad definition that. Could it include say...a camera with a long lens that just happens to hit a screaming woman during an incident like that described by the OP?...I dare say i could do some damage with a stale loaf of bread if i hit someone hard enough with it ;)

Some links from the site i quoted above re photogrpahy. It shows exactly the mentality we're up against in this once great country...

https://www.askthe.pol​ice.uk/Content/Q290.ht​m (external link)

https://www.askthe.pol​ice.uk/Content/Q717.ht​m (external link)

For some strange reason, during the IRA campaigns of the 70's and 80's photography was never an issue. Yet now, when attacks are actually a lot less frequent, anyone with a camera is a potential terrorist. Now, i'm no Al Qaeda strategist, but if i were up to those sort of games, i'd be using Google Earth, a Map and my own eyes, not wandering round with a DSLR and huge lens....

The irony is, that in the country with the most extensive CCTV network on the face of the earth, you get strange looks for taking photos in the street.

You couldn't make it up.

Don't feel bad Geoff, I give us here in the states about another 10 to 15 years before we are just about where you guys in the UK are now.

As more and more people are willing to give up their individual freedoms for a false sense of security it will come faster and faster.

Soon we will need permits to buy food less we be secret al queda terrorists trying to feed our terror cells... and we can probably forget about any non-government sanctioned photography.

By that time you guys in the UK will probably have cctv cameras in your homes to make sure that no criminal activities are being conducted behind closed doors.


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zen (external link)

  
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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 12, 2008 23:38 |  #349

thebishopp wrote in post #6868887 (external link)
Don't feel bad Geoff, I give us here in the states about another 10 to 15 years before we are just about where you guys in the UK are now.

As more and more people are willing to give up their individual freedoms for a false sense of security it will come faster and faster.

Soon we will need permits to buy food less we be secret al queda terrorists trying to feed our terror cells... and we can probably forget about any non-government sanctioned photography.

By that time you guys in the UK will probably have cctv cameras in your homes to make sure that no criminal activities are being conducted behind closed doors.

This is a rather gloomy and depressing outlook on the future...

Why do you think this?


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Stealthy ­ Ninja
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Dec 12, 2008 23:47 |  #350
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thebishopp wrote in post #6868887 (external link)
Don't feel bad Geoff, I give us here in the states about another 10 to 15 years before we are just about where you guys in the UK are now.

As more and more people are willing to give up their individual freedoms for a false sense of security it will come faster and faster.

Soon we will need permits to buy food less we be secret al queda terrorists trying to feed our terror cells... and we can probably forget about any non-government sanctioned photography.

By that time you guys in the UK will probably have cctv cameras in your homes to make sure that no criminal activities are being conducted behind closed doors.

Sounds like 1984 (the book, not the year).




  
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thebishopp
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Dec 12, 2008 23:56 |  #351

Stealthy Ninja wrote in post #6868937 (external link)
Sounds like 1984 (the book, not the year).

That comparison has been made before. Probably not far off target.


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zen (external link)

  
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Dec 13, 2008 00:41 |  #352

Folks, this discussion needs to stay on topic and off of politics.

This has been an interesting discussion so far. I'd hate to see it get derailed.

Political posts have been deleted.

Thanks.



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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 13, 2008 01:08 |  #353

Sorry TD...


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tiziano
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Dec 13, 2008 02:17 |  #354

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #6868443 (external link)
And what praytell would those reasons be? Why wouldn't the people who regularly use or frequent a particular place be of help in keeping an eye on it?

No point in debating this, as it would be off topic, and it would lead to a political discussion. I am sure that there are some who understand me. Those who don't, there is nothing I could say to convince them.

Back to the original topic: the point that I was trying to get across, sometimes pushing ahead the posts from other persons in this thread, (I give you that), is that the OP situation has been evaluated from a legal point of view (conclusion: he could have defended himself with more force, and still he would have been on the right side), and from a practical point of view: (conclusion: not worth using more force or calling the police, because he would have an hard time in court against a mom with children).
But almost no one discussed the situation from an ethical point of view: why it would not be right for a grown man, to hit with a baton or a punch or whatever a mom with children in a park, even if she is hysterically assaulting you. I find it even strange having to explain this. As above, some will understand, for the others, any word is useless. Anyway a responsible man should evaluate all these factors when taking any course of actions:
the situation and consequences for:
himself
his family
his attacker
any innocent involved (the woman' children)
our entire society
our category (photographers)

A responsible person would choose to take some damage (like an insult or a few scratches), instead then causing bigger damage to another person (that could be mentally disturbed), and to innocent persons. And this requires having a spine.
The OP has even been told he has no spine, when he chose the best course of action for everyone. His only mistake was to take that shoot... But I guess he has learnt better now...

I'll tell you that: if you go around taking pictures of other people' children, in countries where this is today considered suspicious, because the law will let you that, and you punch the moms that overreact, or you drag them to court, you are not helping the photographer's rights cause.

I am done with this thread. I don't think I can contribute anymore.


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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 13, 2008 02:20 |  #355

tiziano wrote in post #6869471 (external link)
No point in debating this, as it would be off topic, and it would lead to a political discussion. I am sure that there are some who understand me. Those who don't, there is nothing I could say to convince them.



Well, you're exactly right in your last sentence...

I honestly have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Done here...


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thebishopp
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Dec 13, 2008 03:48 |  #356

tiziano wrote in post #6869471 (external link)
A responsible person would choose to take some damage (like an insult or a few scratches), instead then causing bigger damage to another person (that could be mentally disturbed), and to innocent persons. And this requires having a spine.
The OP has even been told he has no spine, when he chose the best course

I am done with this thread. I don't think I can contribute anymore.

I disagree... doesn't take much of a spine to be a victim. In fact it was the EASIEST course of action for the OP to take and he took it (mainly, based on his statement, of confusion, fear of repercussion, etc.).

The path of least resistence.... in fact it is usually the path suggested and touted by those who do not have the strength of character or conviction to take a harder path (misery loves company).

I am a responsible person and I wouldn't recommend that someone take damage (ie; personal injury). Speak for yourself in cases like that. If you want to "take damage" then YOU take it. Don't tell someone else they are irresponsible if they won't do the same.


"Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous." My Zen (external link)

  
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tiziano
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Dec 13, 2008 07:24 |  #357

thebishopp wrote in post #6869578 (external link)
The path of least resistence.... in fact it is usually the path suggested and touted by those who do not have the strength of character or conviction to take a harder path (misery loves company).

Maybe this is a cultural difference... anyway, where I come from, it's the opposite: the coward one is the one that hits a mom with children.


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Dec 13, 2008 07:41 |  #358

I think the thread has derailed because we're at the end of the track. Nothing new to say on the point.

Later!


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Dec 13, 2008 08:03 as a reply to  @ tiziano's post |  #359

An interesting and informative debate.

I think we all agree that this debate is separated into legalities and morals. I would like to add my support and sympathy to the OP - please do not let this incident ruin your enjoyment of photography.

I hate kid's...... and would not photograph them by choice as they do not interest me at all. But I would give my life to protect them.

With 30 years on the front line of law enforcement, you learn very quickly that irate people are very difficult to deal with, there is no reasoning with them. So you can either walk away or be prepared to defend yourself as it will almost always escalate to some form of assault.

In the UK you can use as much force as is reasonable to protect yourself, another or your property. Unfortunately that means that you should almost wait until the offender has a go, then you can match that. In this case I feel that the OP went about it as best he could. It is difficult to remain calm in these situations without training in conflict situations, so I applaud him.

As mentioned before, offensive weapons are illegal. A camera is not an offensive weapon as it is not designed or manufactured to cause harm - a flick knife or a knuckleduster is. On another point, CS gas or pepper spray can be classed as a firearm in the UK!

I have been accused of being a paedophile when taking pictures in a park. So I can relate first hand to the OP. As I said, I not a kid person, so they weren't the main subject. A woman, rushed over and started having an irrational go at me. I let her rant on for a while but remained calm, this annoyed her even more and she grabbed the front of my 500f4. It was then that she got told in no uncertain terms to desist or suffer the consequenses. She then backed off and yelled that she was calling the police. I gave her the phone number and waited for the police to arrive. In the end she was warned by the police and that any continuance on her part would leave her liable to arrest. After she calmed down I was able to explain to her exactly what I was up to and she apologised. If she asked at the beginning this would never have happened, if I had walked away, she would have told everyone that she had chased off a paedophile.

I will do whatever it takes to protect myself, family and property from irate people, but will not take the blame for instigating situations just because I am enjoying my hobby/profession perfectly legally. I will absolutely not stand for being accused of being any sort of criminal.

Not judging anyone here, just giving another view and example. Just don't let bullies walk all over you. Either know your rights and stand up for them yourself, or call the police to assist.

In the UK, be aware that we have Community Support Officers and they are not trained police officers and really, despite their best intentions, don't have much of a clue about the law in this regard, so please be patient! They cannot make you delete pictures, touch your camera or stop you from taking pictures of them or anything else in a public place.


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Dec 13, 2008 08:40 |  #360

_aravena wrote in post #6853129 (external link)
So what about a photo taken in the UK and brought to the US and then put on a website? Law are so interesting. Thing is, none of them apply until the photos are discovered.

In which case Wikimedia has a lot of child images taken from all over the world that fall into that situation. They are split into dozens of subcategories under this main header, that will need to be deleted from their US website:- http://commons.wikimed​ia.org/wiki/Category:C​hildren (external link)

As for the UK laws on publishing photo's taken in a public place. Permission to publish is only required from the copyright holder, in this case that is Mystery Machine, Otherwise many local media photographs are illegally published.

The actions of the female with the children, there being no proof she was the legal parent or guardian, was quite simply a case of common assault and slander.

There are currently in the UK a few mothers who have absconded with children and are actively being sought by the police. This may have been one of them, hence her backing down when Mystery Machine pulled out his phone to call the police. If so then had the police arrived and arrested her and returned the children to her legal guardian he would have been praised by the public.


Let commonsense prevail

  
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Accused of being a paedophile!!!
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