In's and Out's of Color Management

From time to time we see complaints about using Color Profiles and color managed monitors, with various programs displaying the 'same image' in very different manners...and the issue is NOT simply 'color managed application' vs. 'not color managed application'.

In a post within the past 2 weeks, Tzalman writes a nice starter explanation...
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=7740944&p​ostcount=3

With apologies to Tzalman, I think that just glances over the top of the issue, leaving lots of questions in lots of people's minds. I know, that although I have purchased a Spyder for myself over a year ago, I never have used it, for fear of treading into the unknown and creating more problem for myself than I had without color management! (My prints look like what I see on the monitor, when I send them out to a commercial lab or if I print on my photo printer, from my Lightroom and Paintshop Pro workflow...so why 'mess with what ain't broke'? )

I thought I would start this thread, because a search of POTN does not seem to address this topic as a general one, but only addresses specific issues with a specific application programs in use. The thread which the above link was taken from appears to be more generic than most, but I thought a thread that has a name which might eventually become a Sticky would be a useful one for all to learn.

So, please, Color Management Experts, contribute what you know to this thread. And to keep the low-value commentary minimal in this potential Sticky thread, to keep the value high of the posts within the thread, please do not speculate. Make only statements KNOWN and PROVEN to be true! Particularly if you know of chapters in any books which are well written and high in information content, please refer the POTN readers to them.

Wilt -
I'd like to contribute. Not from my incomplete, halfbaked and amateur knowledge, but rather a recommendation of a series of four articles that was published recently on Photo.net and which is both comprehensive and down to earth and practical. It can be found here:
http://photo.net …orkflow/color-management/

Terrific first article (one down, three to go). Good theoretical basis. As is implied by the thread topic, I really hope that we can venture out of the 'theoretically it should do this...in practice these are the pitfalls and why they occur", (and hopefully how to avoid the pitfalls)

Thanks, Elie, for posting the link.

This must be a topic of little comprehension...That, or the linked articles covered it all. (I still gotta read more than the first one!)

OK,
Article 1...a primer
Article 2...about monitor profiling
Article 3...color settings
Article 4...printer profiling

All good foundation information, but NOTHING about the issue of bringing up the same image with four different applications (some of them in the O/S itself, and not an add on program) and an image has four very different presentations. So just how is a person supposed to cope with this confusion, and how are they to ensure that the photo looks right on someone else's monitor?!

Haven't read the articles yet....
However, if an application is color managed (about anything on OSX, not too much on XP, not sure about Vista), and the monitor properly calibrated, an image should appear the same on whatever system.

(So a photo will look the same on my Mac in PS as on your PC in PS)

If the screen isn't calibrated and / or the application not color managed, all bets are off...

René Damkot wrote in post #7877206
Haven't read the articles yet....
However, if an application is color managed (about anything on OSX, not too much on XP, not sure about Vista), and the monitor properly calibrated, an image should appear the same on whatever system.

(So a photo will look the same on my Mac in PS as on your PC in PS)

If the screen isn't calibrated and / or the application not color managed, all bets are off...

René, thanks...that foundation understanding I know, and presume many others do too. However, there have been threads about color management, which start with the question...
"Why does my picture look like X1 on (color managed application name1), look like X2 on (color managed application name2), look like X3 on (application name3), and look like X4 on (application name4)?" The thread which I borrowed the Tzalman quote from, at the beginning of this thread, is a prime example of exactly that line of questioning.
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=7739765&p​ostcount=1

Other threads with similar discussion...
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=6578694&p​ostcount=1
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=4642508&p​ostcount=1
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=7866654&p​ostcount=1
https://photography-on-the.net …php?p=3788414&p​ostcount=1

So I was seeking a better explanation for:
1) how to manage the differences within the many programs which might reside within our own computer, and
2) how to manage the differences when we hope to display our photos via a photo business web site or in even exchanges like POTN, both with the hope of accurate portrayal of our images.

Right now, it seems the only way to accomplish that accuracy is to share a print made with a profiled printer!

Wilt wrote in post #7877505
So I was seeking a better explanation for:
1) how to manage the differences within the many programs which might reside within our own computer, and
2) how to manage the differences when we hope to display our photos via a photo business web site or in even exchanges like POTN, both with the hope of accurate portrayal of our images.

Well, first off, I know little about the inner workings of Vista and XP, but I think that Windows Picture and Fax viewer (XP) is "half color managed": It reads the embedded profile, but assumes sRGB for monitor. So you will see the difference between your monitor and sRGB. Not sure about Vista's viewer.

Most threads you linked were solved by the way. Either user error or color managed vs. non-color managed applications.

To answer the questions:

1) There should be no difference between the displaying of images on your computer between color managed programs*

2) If the other party (customer or POTN members) browse color managed, and have an accuratly calibrated monitor, they should see the images exactly like you do. If they browse not color managed, or the screen isn't calibrated, you (or they) are out of luck; it's pretty much a guessing game then.

* Lightroom might be an exception: It uses the monitor profile different from other color managed programs as far as I know: If you use a matrix monitor profile, it uses perceptual rendering instead of the usual (and more sensible IMO) relative colorimetric. Not exactly sure why & how though.
Also, LR uses Melissa RGB internally (about ProPhotoRGB with gamut 2.2 instead of 1.8). So an image that is exported as sRGB might clip, while that isn't visible in LR. If you have a wide gamut display, the difference might be quite visible. (More saturated colors in LR, which are clipped to sRGB gamut and less saturated in Photoshop)

René Damkot wrote in post #7888224
2) If the other party (customer or POTN members) browse color managed, and have an accuratly calibrated monitor, they should see the images exactly like you do. If they browse not color managed, or the screen isn't calibrated, you (or they) are out of luck; it's pretty much a guessing game then.

Aha, the net sum is "your mileage WILL vary"...that using a color managed system and then sending images to a customer to view on their home PC which has a very low probability of being color managed, too.

In other words, there is NO RELIABLE WAY to give photos to a client apart from printing previews and sending them to the client!

Color management allows us to control, within our own environment. But once we are out of that environment, it is a crapshoot as to the reliability of your client or POTN members seeing your photo precisely the way you intended...without hardcopy.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but can anyone tell me why on a calibrated monitor, my images look different in Lightroom and PS? Using the recommended (by Lightroom) prophotoRGB in PS CS4. The images are a lot darker and the colours much more saturated in PS.

That's not right. The other way around (lightroom more saturated) might be explainable if you were working on a wide gamut screen and outputting sRGB.
The images should *definately* not be darker in one application.

Sure that the darker part isn't a trick of the eye, caused by a darker application background in LR? (Been there, done that)

How are your color settings set up? (Have a read in the link from my sig)

I could move this off to a seperate thread if that's more convenient?

René, I think it rather serendipitous that the topic intent is the very issue being encountered by Alan! While the explicit fix might not be something considered as this topic's interest (too specific to the pair of products being used), the fact that it occurs and the generic understanding of why it occurs is quite on topic, I think. So going from the general to the specific might be a good example of what goes wrong in color management across products!

René Damkot wrote in post #7919554
That's not right. The other way around (lightroom more saturated) might be explainable if you were working on a wide gamut screen and outputting sRGB.
The images should *definately* not be darker in one application.

Sure that the darker part isn't a trick of the eye, caused by a darker application background in LR? (Been there, done that)

How are your color settings set up? (Have a read in the link from my sig)

I could move this off to a seperate thread if that's more convenient?

Rene - It's not a trick of the eye. I have read through the link in your sig before, but I'll read it again and see if I've missed anything.

As I said, don't want to hijack the thread, especially if it is to become a sticky for generic colour problems as Wllt intended, so please move to a new thread if appropriate. Thanks.

Well, if I understand Wilts last post correct, he doesn't mind, so I'll leave it here
Can always move it later if needed.

If the images get darker and more saturated in PS, and you've set ProPhotoRGB as a working space in PS, all I can think of is that the image opened is in a different color space, and gets PPRGB *assigned* on opening.

Only way that would be possible, is when:

1) There is no embedded profile (very unlikely when using LR), and the "Missing profile" dialog box is not ticked in the PS color prefs, or the wrong option (or right option but wrong profile) is chosen in the "Missing profile" dialog box:

I don't get any warnings when opening in Photoshop. Here's an example of a raw file, no adjustments done in LR, and opened in PS. PS is much darker and more saturated. I just recalibrated my monitor before creating this screenshot. If I export the raw file as a .tif or .psd, it looks identical to the raw file in PS.

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