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Thread started 19 Mar 2010 (Friday) 21:31
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When do we break free from film?

 
pingflood
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Mar 20, 2010 21:05 |  #31

Brett wrote in post #9835999 (external link)
What's so bad about a mode that gives us control over Tv and Av, with the camera compensating with ISO changes, within a settable range and still allows for EC (because, after all, the brain is still smarter than the camera)?

I, for one, would love that mode.

That is Pentax' TAv mode.


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nicksan
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Mar 20, 2010 21:08 |  #32

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9837790 (external link)
Hey Nick theres to much automation on my 5D now I certainly wouldn't want any more. In fact if Canon came out with an all manual body no FPS etc with 16+ MP FF I would be all over it.

I understand, but Canon doesn't make cameras just for you!;)




  
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k.lee
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Mar 20, 2010 21:26 |  #33

Jeff, I think the research for this would be a lot more complicated than AV/TV modes.

Imagine doing algebra with x and y. It's simple enough to find the right value for x and y for a given situation. Now imagine doing that for x, y, AND z for a given situation while still having control for EC. This gets exponentially more complicated and it's exactly what you're trying to get at.

I honestly don't think Canon is going to be spending their $ to research this. :(


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spleenrippa
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Mar 20, 2010 21:52 |  #34

nicksan wrote in post #9837720 (external link)
That's ridiculous. ISO is such a big part of the equation now that we've got cameras able to take relatively clean looking ISO12800-25600 shots, it's a HUGE help to have a correctly implemented Auto ISO, no? I can certainly appreciate something like that. Absolutely. It has nothing to do with "dumbing" down the camera.

And what's so bad with a "average consumer" with a DSLR? Does that threaten you? That's a pretty condescending thing to say don't you think?


Like I said before, I don't quite get auto-ISO. So what if your camera can take a nice picture in the middle of the night because it is ISO25k+ capable... Did you know enough to set the ISO that high and why you might have to in the first place?




  
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breal101
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Mar 20, 2010 23:25 |  #35

airfrogusmc wrote in post #9836189 (external link)
I have no problems with shooting totally manual in all situations and can accurately calculate exposure and make more consistent exposures than most can on auto. Whats wrong with having the knowledge and the brain to correctly use the law of reciprocity and to also be able to quickly change ISO to the desired one using that knowledge and the beautiful thing about the knowledge is you'll never get it if the camera is always doing it for you and once you learn you realize in most situations you can do it better, faster and more accurately than the camera. Just a thought.

Yep, me too, this is my point. Using our brains is a beautiful thing, it's what separates the photographers from the button pushers. Automation can be useful but depending on it fully is false security. The meters we use are not capable of thinking, they do a good job in the confines for which they're designed for, beyond that our brain has to bias the meter result to deliver a proper exposure. Since any auto system depends on the meter for input it's suspect from the beginning. Shooting this way I feel I can take full credit for the photographs I take.


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nicksan
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Mar 20, 2010 23:31 |  #36

spleenrippa wrote in post #9838118 (external link)
Like I said before, I don't quite get auto-ISO.

Right. YOU don't get auto-ISO. That's fine that there is no place for auto-ISO in YOUR shooting.

spleenrippa wrote in post #9838118 (external link)
So what if your camera can take a nice picture in the middle of the night because it is ISO25k+ capable... Did you know enough to set the ISO that high and why you might have to in the first place?

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. If I need to take a photo in dark situations at ISO12800-25600, and if technological advancements allow me to do that, then you can bet I am thankful for that. The insinuation that somehow b/c I am using in the higher ISO's that I am some kind of automatic robot shooter is silly at best.




  
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nicksan
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Mar 20, 2010 23:34 |  #37

breal101 wrote in post #9838621 (external link)
Yep, me too, this is my point. Using our brains is a beautiful thing, it's what separates the photographers from the button pushers. Automation can be useful but depending on it fully is false security. The meters we use are not capable of thinking, they do a good job in the confines for which they're designed for, beyond that our brain has to bias the meter result to deliver a proper exposure. Since any auto system depends on the meter for input it's suspect from the beginning. Shooting this way I feel I can take full credit for the photographs I take.

Who mentioned here that we are depending on "automation" fully? Are you guys seeing the word "auto" in auto-ISO and thinking green mode? :lol:

Auto ISO is like being in Av/Tv mode. So are you guys going to rag on those modes as well? That's pretty silly.

Think of Auto ISO as just another dimension as far as exposure is concerned. It is entirely up to you to control whatever it is that you want to control. You guys do know that you don't have to use these features right? Just like you can change channels on a TV?:lol:;)




  
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Mar 21, 2010 00:14 |  #38

I am a know-nothing button-pusher.


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Mar 21, 2010 00:29 as a reply to  @ cdifoto's post |  #39

I am not sure I get what the big debate is. The OP questioned automatic ISO and having a 3rd variable where you can set the ISO yourself. I have a 50D and I set my ISO. I usually shoot in AV or Manual, and I always set my ISO. I never let the camera do it. So, in AV mode, I am controlling aperture and ISO. In manual mode, I am controlling all three.

I think the point is to shoot what you are comfortable with... i like AV mode because it is a tad faster in some situations. I like manual mode for the creative control.... but not every situation is good for manual or Av IMO... sometimes I need to go Tv to get that special blur...whatever. IN the digital, "post-modern" age, the point is to be flexible and go with the flow.


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Mar 21, 2010 02:29 |  #40

JeffreyG wrote in post #9832692 (external link)
I shoot manual mode most of the time, but whenever I do need to use an automated exposure mode on a dSLR I cannot help but resent the film based shooting modes.

In a nutshell, the camera OEM's offer us 'Tv' and 'Av' modes which both act as if ISO is a fixed parameter. Because in film cameras one could only change ISO by swapping out the roll of film we are stuck with antiquated shooting modes.

The better practice would be to recognize that ISO is now a third variable and allow us to pick which of the three we want to let wander.

The 1D Mark IV has come close to this. If you put the camera in 'M' mode and set ISO to 'auto' the camera functions in a pure mode where ISO is the dependent variable. The only problem? No exposure compensation.

Perhaps soon cameras will discard this last legacy of film and move to new auto-exposure settings where you always pick two variables and one is dependent (with EC). My expectation then is most people would choose to make ISO the dependent variable as it has the least effect on the final picture.

I hate Av and Tv modes generally because both shutter speed and aperture are far too important to leave up to the automation.

Two things confuse me about this...On the 40D you can use Auto ISO in any of the 3 (Av,Tv and M). You can't on a newer camera like the Mk IV?

And if you're shooting manual, why do you want EC on top of that? You are the one setting the exposure then; not trying to correct for the camera being dumb, which is all EC really does IMO.

Assuming that Auto ISO is available on the Mk IV, it seems that that combination (short of having a Iv mode) would give you what you're asking for.

Or did I completely fail to miss the original point?


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mrklaw
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Mar 21, 2010 05:10 as a reply to  @ post 9837835 |  #41

you're in 'M' mode. the very definition says 'Manual'. You can't have exposure compensation because you aren't using the meter to determine exposure. so Auto-ISO isn't applicable.

However..

can't you acheive the same result by using 'M' mode, and adjusting the ISO directly while monitoring the meter in the viewfinder? eg adjust ISO until it the meter reads +1 stop, which is the same as applying EC?

Do current cameras give you direct enough access to ISO while in M mode for this?


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Mar 21, 2010 07:02 |  #42

This has been an interesting read so far. To follow up on a couple thought paths in this thread:

1) For starters, people don't need to tell me that I should shoot manual etc. I shoot manually and set my exposures via incident light metering nearly all the time. That said - there are in fact times where available light is infact not constant. Theater is one such. Indoors with lamps is another (lighting from a few fixtures is subject to the inverse square law). So when you are shooting in highly variable light, an auto meteted mode is convenient.

2) I don't care about the future of film. What I do want is a break from film thinking in the design of digital cameras. The two main auto-metered modes (Av and Tv) make it sound as though you are setting only one variable (aperture and shutter, respectively) when you are actually setting two variables. In each mode, the photographer is manually selecting the ISO as well.

The problem is, there is no mode that let's you pick aperture and shutter speed and lets ISO become the dependent variable. The Mark IV comes closest to having this as a pure mode, but it is grafted on to M mode (with ISO set to auto) and so EC is not available.

A clean sheet digital SLR design would discard P, Av and Tv and create new metered modes named after the dependent variable. One of these modes (call it 'I' Mode) would have you set apeture and shutter speed and then the camera meter would pick ISO.

This is not a hugely important thing to me, but I thought it worth comment. P, Av and Tv have somehow carried over from film to digital even though the method to change ISO has gone from physically swapping films rolls to pressing a button.

The variable I care about the least is the one I want to be the dependent variable. This is almost always ISO. Say I'm shooting a stage play. The lights keep changing for dramatic effect so I am in an auto metered mode. I'm set up to shoot something like f/2.8, ISO1600 and 1/200. Suddenly the lights dim appreciably to two stops darker as the lead delivers a soliloquy.

In Av mode the camera would drop the shutter speed on me to 1/50 and I'd get blur.
In Tv mode the camera would hold 1/200 and keep the lens wide open (f/2.8 ) and underexpose the shot by 2 stops.
In 'I' mode the camera would hold 1/200. f/2.8 and select ISO 6400. Perfect.


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Mar 21, 2010 08:01 |  #43

nicksan wrote in post #9837881 (external link)
I understand, but Canon doesn't make cameras just for you!;)

Yes Nick but I'm not the only one.




  
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breal101
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Mar 21, 2010 09:23 |  #44

nicksan wrote in post #9838678 (external link)
Who mentioned here that we are depending on "automation" fully? Are you guys seeing the word "auto" in auto-ISO and thinking green mode? :lol:

Auto ISO is like being in Av/Tv mode. So are you guys going to rag on those modes as well? That's pretty silly.

Think of Auto ISO as just another dimension as far as exposure is concerned. It is entirely up to you to control whatever it is that you want to control. You guys do know that you don't have to use these features right? Just like you can change channels on a TV?:lol:;)

Auto ISO is just another of the modes that make the camera chase the meter, the meter isn't smart enough yet to tell when it's been affected by a change in light or a change in the color of the costume of the actor in a stage play if you want to use that as an example. The photographer can tell the difference and ignore it or make appropriate compensation. Just how tough is it to push a button and turn a wheel? To me it's not such a big deal to manually change the ISO when I want to, not to depend on a machine to do it for me, especially when the machine can do it wrong. ;)


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Mar 21, 2010 09:49 as a reply to  @ breal101's post |  #45

Call me a Luddite if you like but I've never used Auto ISO..I only use full increments 100, 200, 400 etc,,I have only 1 stop increments enabled.. I do have 1/3rd stops enabled for my shutter speeds and aperture though.. This gives all the control I need..


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