Second shooter code of ethics

I don't have a problem handing out their business card along with the mains. Don't talk business, but the business card is a quick personal contact. As a freelance photojournalist, I always hand out my personal and employers cards.

If you are regularly second shooting, you are likely trying to build your own portfolio and/or business. #1 it is poor thanks to someone who is giving you a shot, and allowing you to learn at the wedding that they spent time and money to book. #2 why would you want to risk starting off your business by ticking off an entire community of professionals who will potentially refer future business to you. #3 it's really bad karma.

I apply the same standard to myself. I occasionally second shoot for a couple of my very best friends, and I would never think of handing out my business card at their events. In fact, I never even give my whole name. When asked, I just tell them my first name. When asked for a business card, I tell them that I am assisting the main photographer and will be right back with one of his/her cards.

Because of this, if a second shooter ever handed out their own business card at a wedding I hired them to shoot, they would not only never work for me again, but they would never find work among the considerable network of New England wedding photographers that I am in touch with.

Other 2nd shooter no-no's:

- Don't represent the images you take at a wedding where you were the second shooter as images you took at a wedding where you were the primary.

- If the primary allows you to use the images on your blog or website, make sure you say in the blog post "Awesome Photographer allowed me to assist at a wedding last Saturday and I was able to capture these great images. Here's Awesome Photographer's website."

- Don't hit on the bridesmaids, bride's Daughter, bride's Daughter's friend, bride's mother, or pretty much anyone else at the wedding. If you want to ruin your own business that way, you are more than welcome to, but when you are second shooting, you are representing the primary's business.

- Don't get yourself alcoholic drinks from the bar.

- Don't shoot the entire day with a wide angle lens two feet away from the bride. E.g. it's your job to know where the primary is at all times and stay out of his/her way...not the other way around.

- DON'T FRIEND YOUR PRIMARY'S CLIENTS ON FACEBOOK OR TAG THEM IN THE PHOTOS YOU TOOK AS THE 2ND SHOOTER!

It's for reasons like those above, that I only hire my very best, most trusted friends as second shooters these days. Unfortunate, really, because I LOVE teaching and helping new people out. But the bottom line is, I feed my kids with my business, and having people along that either try to steal business from me by handing out their own business cards or make my business look bad by one of the reasons I listed above has jaded me a little.

Full time pros often get a reputation as being arrogant a$$e$ (and in many cases it's well deserved), but keep in mind that it is hard work to run a business and keep a full calendar of clients. When you only shoot 20-30 weddings a year, EVERY wedding you book matters. The photographers you should want to 2nd shoot for and learn from (i.e. the really successful ones), are successful, not just because they take great photos, but also because they are great at business. Doing things that can potentially harm their business is a worse offense than taking bad photos .

RDKirk wrote in post #11916476
The best ethical rules are those in writing with signatures at the bottom.

BTW, the second owns the copyright of the images he or she takes--unless it is in writing otherwise.

That is key. Primaries should always have a 2nd shooter contract in place that states what rights each party has to the photos that the 2nd shooter takes.

And, if you are paying them, give them your cards to shoot on. Memory is so cheap these days it is easy to buy a 2nd set of cards to give to the 2nd shooter at the beginning of the day and collect at the end of the day.

And if you use any of the 2nd shooter's images on your blog, it only right to let people know the name of the 2nd with a link to their website in the blog post, even if your 2nd shooter contract says that you own the images.

jamiewexler wrote in post #11917287
If you are regularly second shooting, you are likely trying to build your own portfolio and/or business. #1 it is poor thanks to someone who is giving you a shot, and allowing you to learn at the wedding that they spent time and money to book. #2 why would you want to risk starting off your business by ticking off an entire community of professionals who will potentially refer future business to you. #3 it's really bad karma.

I apply the same standard to myself. I occasionally second shoot for a couple of my very best friends, and I would never think of handing out my business card at their events. In fact, I never even give my whole name. When asked, I just tell them my first name. When asked for a business card, I tell them that I am assisting the main photographer and will be right back with one of his/her cards.

Because of this, if a second shooter ever handed out their own business card at a wedding I hired them to shoot, they would not only never work for me again, but they would never find work among the considerable network of New England wedding photographers that I am in touch with.

Other 2nd shooter no-no's:

- Don't represent the images you take at a wedding where you were the second shooter as images you took at a wedding where you were the primary.

- If the primary allows you to use the images on your blog or website, make sure you say in the blog post "Awesome Photographer allowed me to assist at a wedding last Saturday and I was able to capture these great images. Here's Awesome Photographer's website."

- Don't hit on the bridesmaids, bride's Daughter, bride's Daughter's friend, bride's mother, or pretty much anyone else at the wedding. If you want to ruin your own business that way, you are more than welcome to, but when you are second shooting, you are representing the primary's business.

- Don't get yourself alcoholic drinks from the bar.

- Don't shoot the entire day with a wide angle lens two feet away from the bride. E.g. it's your job to know where the primary is at all times and stay out of his/her way...not the other way around.

- DON'T FRIEND YOUR PRIMARY'S CLIENTS ON FACEBOOK OR TAG THEM IN THE PHOTOS YOU TOOK AS THE 2ND SHOOTER!

It's for reasons like those above, that I only hire my very best, most trusted friends as second shooters these days. Unfortunate, really, because I LOVE teaching and helping new people out. But the bottom line is, I feed my kids with my business, and having people along that either try to steal business from me by handing out their own business cards or make my business look bad by one of the reasons I listed above has jaded me a little.

Full time pros often get a reputation as being arrogant a$$e$ (and in many cases it's well deserved), but keep in mind that it is hard work to run a business and keep a full calendar of clients. When you only shoot 30-30 weddings a year, EVERY wedding you book matters. The photographers you want to 2nd shoot for and learn from (i.e. the really successful ones), are successful, not just because they take great photos, but also because they are great at business. Doing things that can potentially harm their business is a worse offense than taking bad photos .

How much do you Pro photographers pay your 2nd shooters? the reason I ask is I have never had a 2nd shooter in thirty years, nor would I ever take on the job of a 2nd shooter because of some petty do's and dont's like above..

If I pay mine I'll usually pay $10-12/hour depending on their skill level. Or just a flat rate of $100. But usually my fiance is my second since he can rock a camera and doesn't ask for payment in return.

This is an awesome thread with so much info! Even though I feel most of this is common sense, I guess most people don't act this way.

I haven't shot weddings in about 12 years but I now shoot all commercial/advertising and when I did shoot weddings and now when I hire someone to assist, if anyone were to ever hand out their business cards on any job they were working with me on they would never work with me again.

I usually pay about $200 a day for an assistant. They usually never shoot. I hire them to help set up lights,backgrounds, hold portable lights and reflectors, meter, watch subjects (second set of eyes) etc and schlep gear.

TTk wrote in post #11917368
How much do you Pro photographers pay your 2nd shooters? the reason I ask is I have never had a 2nd shooter in thirty years, nor would I ever take on the job of a 2nd shooter because of some petty do's and dont's like above..

Thanks for your input, and since the written word is so easily misinterpreted, I really am curious and not being snarky <-the smiley says I am being genuine here.

If you've been doing this for 30 years, you must have quite a successful business. As a fellow business owner, I honestly want to know which items you find objectionable from my list.

Is it the unprofessional behavior: hitting on bridesmaids, availing yourself of the bar, etc?

The image use guidelines/friending on FB/handing out business cards? Don't you get most of your business via word of mouth? Wouldn't it peeve you just a little bit if one of the guests at your wedding saw the awesome wedding photos you created and wanted to hire the terrific photographer that their friend hired...and had asked for a business card from "the photographer" (they didn't know it was the 2nd shooter) at the wedding...?

Is it not being able to get the shots you want because that PITA primary photographer asks you not to step into their shot?

Honestly, I really wasn't trying to be rude, I really thought that most of my points were common sense, and would be appreciated by other primary photographers on this board. When I occasionally take a 2nd shooter job, I am careful to follow my own guidelines, so I have no problem asking the same of the folks that shoot for me.

As for using 2nd photographers, I very rarely do. If clients want a 2nd photographer it is an add on to their package. Most clients are happy to just have me. For the few weddings a year when I do have a 2nd photographer I pay $30-$35/hr for a solid 2nd photographer, and more if it is a business owner at the same or higher level of ability as myself. Most often I hire out of my network of fellow pros and spend a lot more. But with those folks, I don't have to go over any "rules". They all have their own businesses, and know how it's supposed to work.

Last year I had a few open weekends and 2nd shot for 3 other photographers who are close friends of mine. In all three instances, I didn't even blog my images from those weddings. I showed up, carried their bags, got them water, helped set up their lights, shot what they wanted me to shoot, and collected a check at the end of the day (and enjoyed not having the pressure of the entire wedding on my shoulders ).

SS308 wrote in post #11911609
Only pass out the primary shooter's card. Handing out your own is tacky and unethical.

Agree.

as far as the payment...when I was second shooting I got paid $200 per wedding, I gave the cards to the main shooter at the end of the day, she edited all the photos. I helped with lights, bags, etc...shot the groom getting ready and the candids throughout the day. I could NOT use those photos for my own advertisement, can't post them on FB, etc...can only blog them with the link to the main photog's website.

I second shot for friends a few times for free, with all the right to the photos except selling the photos to the couple.

As far as blogging the photos/using them for portfolio, I make sure I figure out what I can do with the photos when I shoot second. I have been lucky, and they all have said I can use the photos for what ever I would like, with the exception of one, who says I cannot use the photos in series and show it as my wedding (which is completly understandable).

I like to be very cautious how I use the images, and if I am in doubt I ask. For example, when I launched my website I used almost all the photos from second shooting. I emailed each photographer the link, and asked if anyone had a problem with any of the photos I used, or how I used them, and told them I would gladly take them down before I launch the site.

Honestly, if asked I think I would be okay for a second shooter to give out a business card. But I am not sure why anyone would ever ask the second shooter for a card and it does seem the industry disagrees with me.

As long as the second shooter doesn't pass himself off as the primary, I don't see where it becomes unethical except for the fact that it's potentially harming the main's business.

I mean, I know when I'm at a wedding the main photographer is typically doing all the typical shots, and the second gets the creative/unusual angle ones. I know I would much rather have the second than the primary, so getting the main's card is largely useless.

RobertMang wrote in post #11920564
Honestly, if asked I think I would be okay for a second shooter to give out a business card. But I am not sure why anyone would ever ask the second shooter for a card and it does seem the industry disagrees with me.

I was at a wedding and really bonded with the groomsmen. The main photographer was shooting the girls, and I was shooting the guys. Well, later in the evening one of the groomsmen asked me for my card. I gave him the main photographers card which he rejected. Apparently he didnt like the demeanor the main photographer was giving off, and was getting married and wanted my card to shoot his wedding. I then proceeded to give him the main's card, told him to call or email them, and if they wanted to pass off my information then that is how they can get to it. I probably lost a potential client, but I feel good about what I did, and who knows? If the main found out I did that, got pissed and never hired me again, and possibly even spread a bad rap about me (I would have deserved it) my wedding career could have been crippled before it even got going.

I have given my card out on 2 occasions though, and both have been to other photographers that were attending the wedding. One wanted my phone number so he could call me when they were ready to take some photos, and was going to write it on his hand, and all I had was my card which had my phone number on it so I gave it to him. The other I was shooting a photobooth and was talking to a guest who happened to be a photographer, and we really hit it off and we now work together. Funny thing is, all three of these experiences were with the same main shooter.

If a guest specifically asked for your business card and had no intention of seeing the main I don't get why you said no.

Realistically I'm much more concerned about pissing off planners than other photogs.