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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 08 Mar 2011 (Tuesday) 17:19
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Manually Metering high speed sync flash

 
gmbun
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Mar 08, 2011 17:19 |  #1

Can anyone tell me if the current crop of light meters are capable of metering the light emitted from a flash being used in it's high speed sync mode? Do you need to connect the meter with a wire to the camera or is there some special mode on the meter? I currently am using an old analog meter and it doesn't work with hss. Any recommendations on a meter for around $300 or less?


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mike_d
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Mar 08, 2011 17:24 |  #2

They should. Syl Arena used a Minolta Flashmeter IV to quantify the light loss when HSS is used for his book. (I just read that chapter last night.)




  
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bobbyz
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Mar 08, 2011 18:58 |  #3

I never tried my L358 honestly. If I have some time tonight I will do so.


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windpig
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Mar 08, 2011 19:18 |  #4

I just tried it with my L358. Set it on non chord. 7D, 100mm L, 580EXII. All manual 1/500 second, seems to work great.


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gmbun
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Mar 08, 2011 19:51 |  #5

Does it work all the way up the time scale to say 2000 4000 ....? How does it know how many of the pulses coming out of the flash head to count and measure? I'm not sure how it would know unless there is a standard for that or something???? Anyway thanks for trying that out. How do you like that L358? I was thinking of buying that meter.


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windpig
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Mar 08, 2011 20:07 |  #6

SS only goes up to 1/1000 as far as I can tell, I've never gotten into it that much. All of my non ambient is as synch speed. Maybe someone else can step in and give a better evaluation.

It's a great meter, but if I was to do over I would have gone with on that has a built in spot meter because that's the metering mode I use in camera. I couldn't live without a meter now.


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TMR ­ Design
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Mar 08, 2011 20:12 |  #7

gmbun wrote in post #11983886 (external link)
Does it work all the way up the time scale to say 2000 4000 ....? How does it know how many of the pulses coming out of the flash head to count and measure? I'm not sure how it would know unless there is a standard for that or something???? Anyway thanks for trying that out. How do you like that L358? I was thinking of buying that meter.

That's what I was wondering as well. I don't think you can just meter the flash as you normally would if you're using high speed sync.

As an experiment I just did some testing with my Nikon D700, Nikon SB-900 and Sekonic L-758DR. Using Cordless Auto Reset mode on the meter and camera and flash in full manual (FP mode enabled) I took some readings and this is what I got.

Shutter speed was increased in one stop increments.

When I went from max sync speed (1/250s) to 1/500 I metered a -1.1 EV difference.

1/1000 metered -.3 EV.

1/2000 metered -.1 EV.

1/4000 metered -.1 EV.

1/8000 metered -.1 EV.

Based on those readings, going from max sync speed (1/250s) to the maximum shutter speed (1/8000) reduces output by -1.7 EV.

So my question is... what's wrong with this method? And how do you actually meter or determine the loss of light?

I ask because I was under the impression that increasing the shutter speed by 5 stops should result in a greater loss of light. Yes?


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windpig
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Mar 08, 2011 20:32 |  #8

Not that this adds anything to the discussion, but you can see the settings on the meter and then the resulting exposure. I may have to test this again at 500 then 1000.


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Wilt
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Mar 08, 2011 20:40 |  #9

We know, from testing posted on POTN, that HSS power reduction is dependent in part on the which UNIT of flash under test. The reduction in power from X-synch to [+.33EV faster than X-synch] may cause a drop in flash output of 2-3EV, and this was observed by one user testing with four different 580EX units! You can read about this more, in the last few pages of this thread https://photography-on-the.net …p?p=11857480&po​stcount=54 With my own camera and Metz54 flash, I measured a drop in flash output of -3.3EV due to HSS and [+.33EV faster than X-synch]. 40D + Metz 54MZ combo and confirmed with flash in ETTL with HSS Off/On; the flash max distance reports 23' in both HSS on/off at 1/250, and this changes to 7.3' when at 1/320, and the camera was in Manual mode and HSS On.


We also know that with each further reduction by 1/2 (1/400, 1/800. 1/1600) there is an additional loss of effective HSS flash output of 1EV.


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TMR ­ Design
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Mar 08, 2011 20:44 as a reply to  @ windpig's post |  #10

Something still seems wrong with that.

I found a way to determine the light loss.

I shot a gray card and then looked at the percentages in Lightroom and how much of a change in exposure there was as I increased the shutter speed in full stop increments. The flash was set to 1/4 power.

1/500 -2.7 EV
1/1000 -.8 EV
1/2000 -1.0 EV
1/4000 -1.4 EV
1/8000 -.7 EV

That totals -6.6 EV. That makes more sense to me. Does that jive with anyone else's results?


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PacAce
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Mar 08, 2011 22:08 |  #11

TMR Design wrote in post #11984273 (external link)
Something still seems wrong with that.

I found a way to determine the light loss.

I shot a gray card and then looked at the percentages in Lightroom and how much of a change in exposure there was as I increased the shutter speed in full stop increments. The flash was set to 1/4 power.

1/500 -2.7 EV
1/1000 -.8 EV
1/2000 -1.0 EV
1/4000 -1.4 EV
1/8000 -.7 EV

That totals -6.6 EV. That makes more sense to me. Does that jive with anyone else's results?

That sounds about right, Robert. According to the SB-900 manual, at 50mm, ISO 100, the GN of the flash (FX format) is 40 m at or below max sync speed.

And with a shutter speed of 1/500 in FP mode, at 50mm, ISO 100, the GN is 18.4 m, which is more than 2 stops but less than 3 stops less than when not in FP mode. And the Ev drops one stop for each stop increase in shutter speed which also jive, roughly, with what you got.


...Leo

  
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Wilt
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Mar 08, 2011 22:10 |  #12

TMR Design wrote in post #11984273 (external link)
That totals -6.6 EV. That makes more sense to me. Does that jive with anyone else's results?

That falls close to the results posted in the other thread...

  • Initial loss of -2EV or -3EV (depending upon flash unit) just in going to HSS (at 1/320) plus
  • Additional loss of -1EV for each halving of shutter speed...-5EV going from 1/250 to 1/8000

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TMR ­ Design
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Mar 08, 2011 22:34 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #13

Thanks Leo and Wilt for confirming that for me.


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bobbyz
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Mar 09, 2011 08:36 |  #14

So can' rely on meter for HSS?


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TMR ­ Design
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Mar 09, 2011 09:08 as a reply to  @ bobbyz's post |  #15

Hi Bobby,

If someone is actually able to meter the multiple flashes in high speed sync I'd love to see that.

The Multiple mode on a Sekonic meter is not designed for that and won't do it. Multiple mode is for taking a cumulative reading of multiple pops but not at that high burst rate.

If you set you meter to Multiple mode and Cordless Auto Reset and press the measure button, the meter waits for a flash. A reading is taken and the pop number is displayed with the calculated aperture. If you then fire the flash a second time the pop number increments by 1 and the aperture displayed is the cumulative value of the first and second pop.

I did this exact thing with high speed sync enabled and set my shutter speed to 1/4000s. When I press the measure button on the meter and then fire the flash I get the pop number and an aperture value. The meter doesn't see multiple high speed pops as anything other than 1 pop.

So if anyone has actually found a way to meter for high speed sync please share that method because I don't see how it can be done.


Robert
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Manually Metering high speed sync flash
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