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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 23 Mar 2011 (Wednesday) 18:00
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watt100
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Apr 22, 2011 13:05 |  #61

HughR wrote in post #12272892 (external link)
I attended the FlashBus tour in Chicago last Sunday and thought it was well worth the money. I have been using a single off-camera flash for almost 2 years, so I know the basics but learned a lot on top of that. As most of you know, Hobby prefers manual flash setting, while McNally prefers ETTL and frequently uses the pop-up flash on camera for wireless control. (I do the same with my 60D, and the same is available for the 7D and T3i). So here, in no particular order, are a few of the insights I got from FlashBus:

Hobby stressed that manual and ETTL are like two different languages that can describe the same things and get you to the same point. He suggested each photographer focus on the one they like best and are most comfortable with. Hobby stressed that there are times when he uses Av and ETTL instead of manual, such as when the ambient light is changing rapidly such as near sunset. McNally basically agreed with this analysis but prefers ETTL.

I asked Hobby how many flashes he prefers to use, and he replied that 2 flashes are his “sweet spot”, which gives him 3 light sources if he is also using ambient. He prefers a second flash instead of a reflector as his fill.

Hobby likes to use 1/4 CTO to add slight warmth to portraits, but he only uses it on his key light and not on fill or accent lights.

Hobby frequently uses Lumiquest Softbox III as a key light and likes to feather it past the subject and away from the near cheek of the subject.

Hobby was asked how long he takes for a head and shoulders shot. He responded that he takes about 8 minutes of trial and error to get the lighting right, then spends 2 minutes shooting a few dozen photos. McNally also does a fair amount of trial and error before he gets the shot he wants.

McNally showed how he builds up a lighting scheme using up to four flashes (eg. fill, key, 2 rim lights from left and right behind the subject). He was tethered to the projection screens wirelessly, so the audience got to see each shot within about 2 seconds after he took it. I found this enormously instructive, and it gave me several new ideas for using the second 430EX II my wife will be getting me for my birthday.

I have a notebook full of other ideas that will help me with multi-flash photos. Overall, I found it enormously instructive to see how each works. Hobby gave a point-by-point explanation using powerpoint, while McNally taught by making portraits and showing the result of each try. They fit very well together, and the event was lively and fun, with lots of photo jokes. Here are two photos of McNally during his presentation, one showing him taking a shot using a Lumiquest LTP for his key light. Both were shot from the audience (4th row) using my 70-300 IS lens at about 200mm on my 60D. Flash was on camera, as there was no other possibility from the audience.


he is using one of those sto-fen like plastic diffusers on his flash!

Obviously these noob amateurs don't read POTN




  
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sml
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Apr 22, 2011 13:11 |  #62

watt100 wrote in post #12273026 (external link)
he is using one of those sto-fen like plastic diffusers on his flash!

Obviously these noob amateurs don't read POTN

hahaha.
As I recall they both used them. Surprising.
On the other hand, they both advocated using a lot of add-on reflectors, etc.


Steve L
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HughR
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Apr 22, 2011 14:30 |  #63

watt100 wrote in post #12273026 (external link)
he is using one of those sto-fen like plastic diffusers on his flash!

Obviously these noob amateurs don't read POTN

Agreed. I've tested my sof-ten and find that it doesn't even spread the light in a softbox effectively. All it does is reduce light intensity by about 2/3 to 1 stop. I only use a sof-ten occasionally and in a small room with very light walls. For the shots I posted, taken from about 60 feet away, I used my 430EX on camera to get the brightest flash possible from my audience position. As I anticipated, this produced red-eye, which proves that my flash was illuminating the scene. Two mouse clicks in CS5 corrected the red-eye. Obviously, this is less than ideal lighting, but it's useful documentation and all that was possible from the audience.

McNally uses the diffuser that comes with Nikon flashes, I believe. I was going to ask him why he uses them so much, but I didn't get the chance. I guess Nikon doesn't know how useless they are either.


Hugh
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EFS 15-85mm IS USM, EF 70-300mm IS USM, Tokina 11-16mm
Speedlite 430EX, Speedlite 430EX II,
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HughR
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Apr 22, 2011 14:34 |  #64

Oh, yes, one other quick point. McNally was using his on-camera flash as a master, and the sof-ten does help to throw some light to the sensor on the overhead key flash, which helps solve the line of sight problem for him. I believe he mentioned this at the time.


Hugh
Canon 60D, Original Digital Rebel (2003)
EFS 15-85mm IS USM, EF 70-300mm IS USM, Tokina 11-16mm
Speedlite 430EX, Speedlite 430EX II,
Qbox 16 pro, Lastolite EZbox 24x24, Lumiquest Softbox III

  
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bobbyz
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Apr 22, 2011 14:54 |  #65

MinnGreenGT wrote in post #12261341 (external link)
I just wanted to add another thought to this ~ more specifically in a TTL vs Manual perspective: it always seemed to me that eTTL advocates often times suggest that it is more versatile because it can adapt to changing conditions. But after seeing Joe work with it first hand, it seemed more obvious to me that it wasn't necessarily more versatile, or that it would do anything "more right" with changing conditions (quite the contrary, as it often times guessed "wrong" when things were changed up in the scene). It struck me that the real advantage to eTTL was the ability to adjust & tweak your OCF power settings without physically going to each flash. Also, those flash settings were relative - rather than absolute (+/- Flash EV, as opposed to specific power levels). I was also a little surprised to find that (at least the Nikon) the eTTL system does not allow 100% power from the flash (Joe mentioned a couple of times that the flash set to 100% via manual was actually putting out approximately 10% more than it could max out with TTL).

I came away with a more-realistic understanding (IMHO) that eTTL control is not really easy or "automatic" by any measure. Rather just a different set of tools to accomplish the same (or similar) results in the end.

Anyone else agree with this perception? :)

Line between manual and eTTl is blurring for some things. Case in point, using radio Popper Jrx you can control manual power of the flash without need to walk to it. Same thing when using flash in eTTL mode but using manual switch on AC3 of PW mini/flex system. You control absolute power levels even though flash is in eTTL mode.

I do agree, eTTL vs Manual are different tools and you better know how to use both of them.


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bobbyz
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Apr 22, 2011 14:56 |  #66

sml wrote in post #12269278 (external link)
It also appeared to me that both of their methods were empirical...that is, trial and error until you build up a body of experience. Then, be ready to adjust.
The question I had (at the Chicago show) when I left is how David got his starting point...and I surmised that is was just from experience. He kinda said that, didn't he?

Nothing wrong with either of those "formulas," but I'm still trying to determine if I want to start out manually and adjust or start out using TTL and adjust. Seems like both can and do end up at the same point frequently...that is, with a good result.

(It's like using manual exposure on the camera and tweaking as needed or using Aperture or Shutter Priority and tweaking as needed....right? I actually prefer the manual method with exposure.)

By the way...this is exactly what I liked about the tour...it has made me THINK and get ideas! Totally worth it.

Get a light meter and make life easier. After a while you will know your starting points but meter will come hadny even then when using more than one light.


Fuji XT-1, 18-55mm
Sony A7rIV, , Tamron 28-200mm, Sigma 40mm f1.4 Art FE, Sony 85mm f1.8 FE, Sigma 105mm f1.4 Art FE
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Canon 24mm TSE-II, 85mm f1.2 L II, 90mm TSE-II Macro, 300mm f2.8 IS I

  
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dmward
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Apr 22, 2011 17:18 |  #67

I was at the session in Chicago too.
I think we all have to remember that there were a lot of people involved in getting that show together and working in addition to David and Joe.
As to the two methodologies;
Manual flash involves;
A) pick camera settings
B) place lights and set initial power
C) incident meter, and adjust power
D) Confirm accurate exposure by chimping
Repeat until the ideal outcome is on the memory card

TTL Flash involves;
A) pick camera settings
B) place lights and set initial power
C) reflective meter, and adjust power (camera and flash does this automatically and via FEC/EC)
D) Confirm accurate exposure by chimping
Repeat until the ideal outcome is on the memory card

Using either approach well takes experience, knowledge and insight.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
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elogical
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Apr 22, 2011 20:51 |  #68

When watching Joe adjust flashes from the camera he pretty much sold me on TTL except for with the big price tag. Like you guys mentioned above, he still needed to adjust power levels to get it right. For me it's sure not worth a few thousand to upgrade by yongnuos just to avoid walking across the room...

Another thing to keep in mind here is that TTL is going to respond a little differently to studio type shots than it does when used as fill in a mostly ambient exposure. A lot of the work Joe normally does is some environmental kinda stuff, the on stage demo was basically like studio work since they were killing off the overhead fluorescents in the exposure. Obviously the TTL flashes are going to need a little tweaking in either scenario but they still respond a little different


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Staszek
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Apr 22, 2011 23:16 |  #69

watt100 wrote in post #12273026 (external link)
he is using one of those sto-fen like plastic diffusers on his flash!

Obviously these noob amateurs don't read POTN

Actually, the creator of Sto-fen was at the San Jose seminar.


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watt100
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Apr 23, 2011 06:55 |  #70

Staszek wrote in post #12275893 (external link)
Actually, the creator of Sto-fen was at the San Jose seminar.

I hope you got a chance to tell the creator that the sto-fen product is worthless but he (or she) is a marketing genius




  
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dmward
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Apr 23, 2011 12:56 |  #71

Maybe not worthless, but certainly it is used for a lot of things that its not good for.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

  
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