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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 06 Apr 2011 (Wednesday) 19:45
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do these images/crops look too soft? paranoid about my 7D taking soft pictures

 
rhys216
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Apr 10, 2011 19:03 |  #31
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robtk wrote in post #12173833 (external link)
damn. just did a MA to +7 and it's waaaay better. thanks for the tip, gonna do this on my tokina tomorrow.

Before you get too excited, make sure the lens/camera is still sharp at different focus distances, i.e. try the following.

1m - Sharp - Yes/No
3m - Sharp - Yes/No
5m - Sharp - Yes/No
10m - Sharp - Yes/No




  
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tonylong
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Apr 10, 2011 19:27 |  #32

I really haven't taken the time to delve into the 7D and don't have one.

I wonder if someone has actually published some research into this camera/sensor in a definitive way that lays out the proper approach to things such as "input sharpening"?

For example, by nature, some input sharpening would be required with a Raw image in a Raw processor simply to compensate for the physical softening caused by the antialiasing filter. That's always been a "fact of life" with digital images, and this is why sharpening is typically applied at various strengths when you shoot jpegs (unless you purposefully crank it way down manually in the camera.

So the above poster who called sharpening incorrect was, well, not entirely correct. But it is true that the camera should not require dramatic sharpening just to lookd acceptable, just the right amount to recover from the filter softening and bring out the proper fine detail.

So, how much is the "proper" amount for "input sharpening"? It does vary from sensor to sensor, and on the 7D I suspect that it is at a higher level than most if not all previous sensors, but how much is the "right" amount? This should not vary with the lens, although certainly the fact that if you get a soft image it will in itself require special attention, but let's say you had the sharpest lens and you got the best possible focus -- how much "input sharpening" would be called for?

I'd be curious to see if there are any published studies. This camera/sensor presents its own little challenges, and this is one of them. To know whether a shot from a particular lens is "soft" you want to have a base "starting point" and if that was clearly understood with the 7D it would help users in their evaluation.

Of course, shooting technique plays a major role in these things, and more so with the 7D than older cameras simply because the high resolution of the 7D will bring out any errors in technique "larger" if viewing an image at 100%. So really, someone asking about a "soft" image at a 100% view should first of all identify whether it was shot hand-held or not, and if so at the very least a quite high shutter speed that will ensure that camera movement will not be an issue, and in this case I'd say the shutter speed should not be defined by the "rule of thumb" of 1/flxcrop factor but significantly faster. Otherwise, the likelihood of camera shake being magnified by the 100% view is way too high. And, it goes without saying, that further testing needs to be done with a tripod, MLU and a remote release/cable release so you can get a good starting point/reference to truly evaluate things!


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rhys216
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Apr 10, 2011 19:48 |  #33
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tonylong wrote in post #12196547 (external link)
So the above poster who called sharpening incorrect was, well, not entirely correct.

Who said sharpening was incorrect?
I was simply replying to the poster who thought it was ok to rescue OOF 7D images in LR, sighting the 7D needed such sharpening in PP as if it was the norm. If it was the norm, I wouldn't touch a 7D with a barge pole! ?!

Rhys216 wrote:
Sharpening in software, degrades the image and causes artifacts, and generally makes the image look un-natural, sharpening should only have to be used sparingly.




  
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tonylong
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Apr 10, 2011 20:32 |  #34

rhys216 wrote in post #12196677 (external link)
Who said sharpening was incorrect?
I was simply replying to the poster who thought it was ok to rescue OOF 7D images in LR, sighting the 7D needed such sharpening in PP as if it was the norm. If it was the norm, I wouldn't touch a 7D with a barge pole! ?!

Ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. My question would be as to whether anyone has yet defined the norm for the 7D?


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gordholio
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Apr 12, 2011 14:31 |  #35

I'll chip in here and say this: I took tons of images with my old T2i and tons of images with my current 7D. And overwhelmingly the T2i images (same lenses) were sharper. I'm talking pics of birds and flowers here - stuff where you can really see softness and clarity in the individual feathers and petals. I view them at defualt size, at 100%, at 200%, and at all sizes in between, and the T2i's were just plain sharper. Crisper. The individual feather hairs were less fuzzy. No doubt.

It's been frustrating me for months now. So today I called Canon and I'm sending it in.




  
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rhys216
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Apr 12, 2011 16:24 |  #36
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gordholio wrote in post #12208223 (external link)
I'll chip in here and say this: I took tons of images with my old T2i and tons of images with my current 7D. And overwhelmingly the T2i images (same lenses) were sharper. I'm talking pics of birds and flowers here - stuff where you can really see softness and clarity in the individual feathers and petals. I view them at defualt size, at 100%, at 200%, and at all sizes in between, and the T2i's were just plain sharper. Crisper. The individual feather hairs were less fuzzy. No doubt.

It's been frustrating me for months now. So today I called Canon and I'm sending it in.

Yeh the 550D is exceptionally sharp, and has very consistent focus, I read a review somewhere that said also reckoned the 550D had more accurate focusing than the 7D (at least for stationary objects), and we all know the 550D is sharper strait out of camera.
Not sure is both censors have this 'anti aliasing filter', but I'd rather not need to add so much sharpening in PP.




  
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jwcdds
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Apr 12, 2011 16:44 |  #37

^ That's all news to me. But in any case, one should check whether the lens needs some MA if there's a sharpness issue.


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gordholio
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Apr 12, 2011 16:49 |  #38

I did MA. More importantly, I used the same lenses on the T2i (and my Xsi before that), where MA doesn't even enter the equation.

BTW, this is my *second* 7D. The first was returned after a couple days for being RIDICULOUSLY soft.




  
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Alex_Venom
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Apr 12, 2011 16:52 |  #39

rhys216 wrote in post #12208936 (external link)
Yeh the 550D is exceptionally sharp, and has very consistent focus, I read a review somewhere that said also reckoned the 550D had more accurate focusing than the 7D (at least for stationary objects), and we all know the 550D is sharper strait out of camera.
Not sure is both censors have this 'anti aliasing filter', but I'd rather not need to add so much sharpening in PP.

Perhaps the combination of body and lens give better results on the 550D because the calibration of both are closer than the 7D.
You'd be surprised how sharper my files from the 40D with the 50 1.4 were compared to the 7D. A +5 MA did the trick and now the 7D is equally sharper... but with 8 more megapixels :D


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jwcdds
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Apr 12, 2011 16:53 |  #40

I'm assuming you're shooting RAW right? Cuz it's basically the same sensor. IQ should be identical.


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rhys216
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Apr 12, 2011 16:56 |  #41
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jwcdds wrote in post #12209128 (external link)
I'm assuming you're shooting RAW right? Cuz it's basically the same sensor. IQ should be identical.

550D's sensor is slightly different/newer so IQ is not identical, also 7D has very different focusing.




  
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gordholio
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Apr 12, 2011 16:57 |  #42

Don't know about everyone else, but I'm definitely shooting RAW.

To be fair, I'm not personally referring to massive blurriness.The entire photo doesn't look horribly indistinct. But when I magnify at all, the difference is obvious. Dang, when you pay this much for a camera, the pics should be AT LEAST as sharp as the much less pricey alternatives.




  
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rhys216
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Apr 12, 2011 17:22 |  #43
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jwcdds wrote in post #12209072 (external link)
^ That's all news to me. But in any case, one should check whether the lens needs some MA if there's a sharpness issue.

David Kilpatrick wrote:
Here, as with the 7D, Canon scores by making the high-density sensor very clean at high ISO settings.

The 18 megapixel sensor yields lower noise than the similar sensor in the 7D, and Canon confirms it is not identical.

David Kilpatrick wrote:
The 550D also has better dynamic range, maybe at the expense of some colour discrimination. All this is achieved with the help of gapless micro-lenses and low-density colour filters on the sensor.

David Kilpatrick wrote:
Despite the far simpler AF array of the 550D, with its single f/2.8 central sensor, I found it more accurate with everyday subjects than the 7D.
Does this mean the AF system of the 550D is superior to the 7D? Maybe Canon has adjusted whatever parameters it can to yield more consistent and acceptable results from the inexperienced user. That must include me, as my hit-rate with the 550D was definitely better than with the 7D.


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gabebalazs
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Apr 12, 2011 20:37 |  #44

The 7D is capable of the following images, this is a collection of 100% crops:

https://photography-on-the.net …99284&highlight​=100%25+7d


SONY A7RIII | SONY A7III | SONY RX10 IV | SONY RX100 | 24-70 2.8 GM | 70-200 2.8 GM | 16-35 F/4 | PZ 18-105 F/4 | FE 85 1.8 | FE 28-70 | SIGMA 35 1.4 ART | SIGMA 150-600 C | ROKINON 14 2.8
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jwcdds
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Apr 12, 2011 23:49 |  #45

rhys216 wrote in post #12209146 (external link)
550D's sensor is slightly different/newer so IQ is not identical, also 7D has very different focusing.

I guess I'm going to have to see side-by-side direct comparisons of the RAW files to "visualize" this difference in IQ that you seem to believe is present. I can imagine differences in JPG SOOC as that's a software conversion and software can change. But I'll be a monkey's uncle if you can tell me you can pick out which photo is from the 550D, and which is from the 7D (or 60D, or 600D), if you view all of them side-by-side, given all other parameters are constant (shutter, aperture, lighting, distance, lens used).

Sure, the focusing is different because of different hardware and different AF systems. But I guess that sort of depends on whether one learns to use the 7D AF correctly, no?

Just a slight example:

resized image

IMAGE: http://julianchen.smugmug.com/Misc/Lens/Canon-24L-II/20110208-IMG1465/1182232245_RRKFU-L.jpg

100% pixel-peeping crop 1
IMAGE: http://julianchen.smugmug.com/Misc/Test-Photos/20110208-IMG1465crop1/1250322599_rLzRS-L.jpg

100% pixel-peeping crop 2
IMAGE: http://julianchen.smugmug.com/Misc/Test-Photos/20110208-IMG1465crop2/1250322615_i7W2e-L.jpg

Short of going FF (which then changes things as you can't use the same lens w/o changing FoV/AoV, or w/o changing DoF)... I can't see this particular image being sharper even pixel peeping. But between the 550D/7D (60D/600D), etc... I can't imagine softness/sharpness of the photo being the result of the slightly different sensors. But that's just me.

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do these images/crops look too soft? paranoid about my 7D taking soft pictures
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