M mode = good photographer? (splitted from "350D softness?")

This makes no sense to me? Why would anyone finish at "M"? In Manual mode you are still using the same metering area, you're just making the entire process of aquiring the proper exposure settings longer by making yourself do it rather than letting the camera snap it there immediately. "M" is for specialty shots, like say, a silhouette or to specifically blow out highlights ... maybe a special flash situation, but no one should ever end up at M as a final destination for good photography. For 99% of the shots the typical photographer would take Av/Tv, a tight metering area, and AE/FE lock are all that's needed.

Bill in Brooklyn

I find that the best photos I take are taken in M mode and in RAW format.

That makes perfect sense to me. The best way to take the best photos is to know the most of what your equipment can do. The best way to understand what your equipment can do is to go in M mode and experiment with what it can do.

Jim and Doc, you both make very good points that I agree with. I have seen that as I play around with the different creative zones on the camera and read posts from some of you who have been in this forum and doing this for a while, I am getting better with my photo taking.

I would think that the more a person knows about photography, lighting, composition, etc., they should be able to make all the proper settings in M mode and get a perfect shot. The camera might make it easy in some of the other modes, but it might not be the way that you, as the photographer, wants the shot to come out in the end.

M mode does nothing that Av/Tv doesn't do ... I can set my aperature, or shutter (whichever is relevant to the shot at hand) and set exposure compensation for shots I feel need something special with no need to modulate two dials. This method means I can setup my shots in a fraction of the time it takes you.

If you really think that M gives you something "special" that other program modes, you really don't know how to best utilize your camera.

Bill in Brooklyn

It really isn't necessary to take personal shots, is it? I am sure that Doc knows exactly how to best utilize his camera in the M mode which he prefers. You know how to best utilize the camera in the modes that you prefer.

The reason to have these forums is so that everyone can discuss the issues and put in their two cents for others to form their own opinion, right? Just because one person takes photos in one mode that you do not see as appropriate does not make it wrong. It is your opinion that it is wrong, not fact.

No offense to you Sanders, you just happen to be the one I'm replying to, but this is one of the dumbest arguments that has come across this board yet.

Let me break this down in the simplest way possible to understand. There are 4 main camera "settings" to any given photo. There's focal length which you select through choice of lens and the magnification you turn to on a zoom lens. There's the speed of the medium (medium as in film or digital) which is the ISO. There's the aperature which is a diaphram that controls the amount of light the lens allows through, and finally there's the shutter which controls how long that amount of light is exposed to the medium.

If I, in Av mode, want to take a shot, I will still control the focal length, the ISO, and the aperature value. The camera will use its built-in light meter to determine the proper shutter speed for this scene with the ISO/Aperature combo I've selected, give it to me in a fraction of a second, and let me take the shot.

The rest of you sadists, will set those values, then have to point your camera at the target, half depress the shutter, watch this little light meter/graph thing show up in the bottom of the display, and rotate either a second wheel, or a combination of button and wheel, to move a little slider left and right until it falls on the center. Surprise!! That's the same light meter that determined my shutter speed and in a fraction of a second set it for me automatically. All in all this will probably take those of you who are good at it, merely a second assuming that the existing values are close to what the proper values are for this latest shot ... that still doesn't detract from the fact that its more work, takes longer, and provides no benefit to almost all shots (see, I didn't use a percentage number, are you happy now??)

So of course, you're argument will be, "Well, what if I'm trying to expose to something other than what the meter suggests, aren't you SOL?". Umm, no.

If we're changing exposure to compensate for a dark skin tone for example, all I have to do is move my exposure compensation dial, quite similar to you moving the "other" Manual dial ... done. Ironically, my exposure compensation allows for exactly the same number of exposure stops as the dinky light meter in your display, so you have absolutely zero advantage there as well. Also if I, for example, were taking a picture of something that was significantly brighter or darker than the "scene" and I wanted to make sure that the "scene" was correctly exposed, all I have to do is half depress my shutter on the "scene" just as you do, I whack the AE lock button, recompose, and shoot. You have exactly the same number of steps in that scenario, but you have to rotate that dial until you get it in the center ... in other words you're slower than me again.

As I said earlier, the ONLY place that M makes any sense whatsoever is in a studio where a dedicated light-meter leads the way or in special flash situations that the camera has trouble figuring out. Any other use of M by regular people in relatively "normal" shooting conditions is simply a way for some people to appear more "professional" in an online forum. No offense.

Bill in Brooklyn

I'm not trying to take personal shots ... I'm trying to make a point. M mode, as I've just explained in my last post, offers no advantage whatsoever in anything but special situations. The original post in this thread was by someone looking for advice and is somewhat new to SLR photography. We should be here to teach people, not give them advice which holds them back, and that's all I'm trying to avoid.

Again, in my previous post, when I say "you" I mean those who advise for "M" mode, not you (Sanders) personally. I hope you don't take my last post as an attack and I'm sorry if you do.

Bill in Brooklyn

And as I said earlier, the comment was intended as one reaching a degree of competence, not as the preferred way to take a photograph.
As you state, I very often do not use M as my method du jour, it's much easier to do it in some of the ways you suggest.
However I am pleased to know how to use the M if the situation warrants it, and I think anyone intent on becoming a really good photographer should strive to understand the factors you mention well enough to use M should it be the way to go in that instance.

Jim

No offense taken. Like I said, the whole point to these forums is to convey information to each other.

That's right. The camera determines the shutter speed. My point was that this might not be "correct" shutter speed for another photographer who wants to get a different effect to their photos. Of course, shutter speed is not a good analogy here as opposed to setting the aperature. What might be "right" for one photographer might not be right for the other photographer. That was what I was trying to say.

We can all make our points without telling someone our opinion that something is incorrect. I say opinion, because it is one's personal preference to use their camera the way they want to use it. We might just not agree with their way of doing it, but that does not make it wrong.

I agree with you on this one. I do not use the M mode. I will not sit here and tell you that I know a whole hill of beans about photography. I am learning by reading posts like yours and others who have been on the forums for a while. A lot of you guys do this for a living, so who else is better to learn from?

Again, I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong. I am just saying that we should respect everyone in the forums for who they are. Your favorite setting might be Av. Someone else's might be M. Mine is currently P, Tv, and Av, because I want RAW output and I am also trying to learn what the different settings do to my shots in similar compositions. Just because we do not agree with the way that one person takes a photo does not make it incorrect.

But, I repeat myself.

Understood.

I totally agree and I appreciate the information that I get from you and everyone else who have been doing this a lot longer than me.

Nope... I did not take it as an attack at all, but rather healthy debate. I hope you do as well.

Bill, First off let me say that I basically agree with you and I use the Tv/Av modes (and P, if I need a quick flash pic) 99% of the time. But I have a question about this, and forgive me if this is splitting hairs:

But doesn't the exposure compensation do it's work by equivalently tweaking the ISO - basically a post-processing? Lets just say you were on the hairy edge of getting some grain showing up (say at 1600 ISO) and you needed just a tad bit more exposure. Would it not be better to tweak the actual F-stop or shutter speed than mess with the exposure compensation?

cheers

-Bruce

Oh boy . . . I'll try to be brief, but I have to disagree on a few things.

The only diff is that in your case the camera does the 'thinking' In M mode, the photographer does the thinking. Tell me which you prefer

Not true. The exposure compensation only gives +/- 3 stops (on a 1 series camera, on a 20D it's +/- 2stops I think?)
Manual gives you the entire shutter range. Sometimes 3 stops is _not_ enough.

Not true as well. I shoot a lot of concerts. While most of the time the camera is in either Av or P, sometimes I have to use manual: for instance at a rock concert with lots of guys in black, against a black background. If the front light is more or less constant, it's a lot easier to use M than to constantly change exposure compensation according to the amount of black you have in the frame.
Also when outside under constant lighting, I prefer to use M. Lot easier. Don't have to tweak the exposure compensation, just aim & shoot.
Just my € 0.02

I also find M mode very helpful for night shots where I want to have a black night, not a washed out dark grey one ...

To each his own, I guess...

Best regards,
Andy

Nope, exposure compensation has no affect whatsoever on ISO, that's set by you and left alone. Exposure compensation adjusts either the shutter or aperature (whichever one you AREN'T controlling) to under or over expose the photo. This is identical to what you would do in M mode by not putting the pointer dead center.

Bill in Brooklyn