Paul C. Buff...YOU ROCK!!!

Your lucky you had it just for a month. Anything passed 90 days you would of had to pay for the shipping there and back, and wait for the unit to be returned. The customer service isn't that great.

anlenke wrote in post #12370695
I disagree; I don't think the point was missed. As one of those "elitists" with more expensive lights, I felt like it was a useful continuance for me to talk about my experience with both Alien Bees and Profoto, as I have both. I don't demand perfection, I don't laugh at Alien Bees; I'm an early 20's college student who knows he wants to photograph for a long time so I saved and saved and have been eating ramen for years to get Profotos because of their performance, and yes, their non-need for service. That's what I bought them for; and I hope they continue to perform. I also use my alien bees, more than my profotos in fact. They are fantastic lights for what they are, and I've been open about that, both in this thread and in others. No bragging, no elitism, just a college kid that sees the merit in both systems.
Alien Bees does have great customer service, that is not something to be taken for granted. I have used it before, and they've been great. I agree with kechar, but I also think it's perfectly valid to point out that there are other issues with Alien Bees too, and I think, just as the initial post was to inform people about Alien Bees CS, if I were a person considering Alien Bees, I'd want to know all of this.

Dammit, man.... that's a balanced perspective. We simply can't have that around here. Polarize or vaporize... get with the program.

:p

dave63 wrote in post #12372796
Dammit, man.... that's a balanced perspective. We simply can't have that around here. Polarize or vaporize... get with the program.

:p

My bad. I'm new here; I'll work on it.

anlenke wrote in post #12370695
I disagree; I don't think the point was missed. As one of those "elitists" with more expensive lights, I felt like it was a useful continuance for me to talk about my experience with both Alien Bees and Profoto, as I have both. I don't demand perfection, I don't laugh at Alien Bees; I'm an early 20's college student who knows he wants to photograph for a long time so I saved and saved and have been eating ramen for years to get Profotos because of their performance, and yes, their non-need for service. That's what I bought them for; and I hope they continue to perform. I also use my alien bees, more than my profotos in fact. They are fantastic lights for what they are, and I've been open about that, both in this thread and in others. No bragging, no elitism, just a college kid that sees the merit in both systems.
Alien Bees does have great customer service, that is not something to be taken for granted. I have used it before, and they've been great. I agree with kechar, but I also think it's perfectly valid to point out that there are other issues with Alien Bees too, and I think, just as the initial post was to inform people about Alien Bees CS, if I were a person considering Alien Bees, I'd want to know all of this.

Hey, Anton.

I don't care if you are in your 10's or 20's or 60's, but if you use Profoto lighting you are an elit to me ;D...
It is true about how nice profoto products are and i do wish to own some of those someday. For rightnow, i truly appreciate Paul C. Buff who has been serving us decent products at great prices. While saving my money for more lighting equipments later, i am very happy (playing and) practicing with AB lightings.
I also think Alien Bees Customer service is awsome and 90 day warranty with prepaid returns and free exchange for defective items are more than fair.
Maybe some day PCB with make the high end product line for those ... elits who can afford paying for high polished stuff ... ;D

hhuy888 wrote in post #12374165
Hey, Anton.

I don't care if you are in your 10's or 20's or 60's, but if you use Profoto lighting you are an elit to me ;D...
It is true about how nice profoto products are and i do wish to own some of those someday. For rightnow, i truly appreciate Paul C. Buff who has been serving us decent products at great prices. While saving my money for more lighting equipments later, i am very happy (playing and) practicing with AB lightings.
I also think Alien Bees Customer service is awsome and 90 day warranty with prepaid returns and free exchange for defective items are more than fair.
Maybe some day PCB with make the high end product line for those ... elits who can afford paying for high polished stuff ... ;D

I totally agree with everything you've said about Alien Bees. I know that owning Profoto lights puts me in a small minority of photographers, but to be "elite", has more to do with skill, creativity and results, than gear. The way the previous poster was using the word "elite" referred to an esoteric snobbery that I think is pretty far from what I am. I'm on POTN to learn, and to teach others what I've learned, and I don't think my photos should get any more or less merit because I use Profotos/Alien Bees on a given shot. As a college kid, working two jobs to save an extra $50 a week for 3 years to afford the lights, I think it comes down to priorities too. Bottom line though, I don't consider myself as elitist, and I should hope I don't come off as such. I'd like someone to be able to look at my photographs and not tell if they were taken with my D90 or D700, my Vivitar 285's or my Profotos, but just to be intrigued/impressed/ha​ppy with the image I made.

MD Steelerfan wrote in post #12369542
I think thd point that is made by the OP was skipped over. It was good customer service not just because they replaced his broken product but because he didn't have to argue why they should replace it or defend his position that thd item was deffective, etc. They just replaced it no questions asked, no excuses, etc.

I love the people who bought equipment that cost 5x as much and then brag that they never have need for customer service. First of all I would bet there are plenty of profoto and elinchrom units with issues. I'm sued you would get good customer service from those companies. You should for what they charge. You simply don't hear about those units on these boards because at the price point they sell at you have fewer customers and a lower percentage of pros with time it need for this type of forum.

The "In Europe we demand perfection" crap is laughable. That type of elitest attitude is pathetic. My neighbor got hit hard by another car while driving her $100,000.00 Mercedes. Her fancy European car was faulty and the airbags didn't even go off. The car was totaled and she almost died. So much for that perfection the European companies produce. I've seen $15000 cars do a better job protecting their drivers.

If you don't like AB's that's fine. The OP just was happy he got the response he wanted from their customer service.

Maybe it was my/our point that was skipped over. You don't need broncolor or profoto lights to have something that just plain works. My Elinchrom 600RX's (their "top of the line") were about $800 per light, which included the wireless triggers (that allow you to change the power remotely). That is FAR from 5x's the price of the einsteins.

I'm not in Europe, but I do demand performance/usability. I'm a professional...so PCB exchanging a light after a failed shoot because of a blown light is FAR from acceptable. Sending in a light three times for minor "upgrades" (codename: making it work like it ought to) is equally unacceptable. Being without lights, or even worse, having to cancel a shoot mid-way through can downright ruin a reputation of a professional. This has nothing to do with your neighbors benz.

Fancy lights don't make your lighting any better (in most cases)...but they do make your lights reliable, which in turn makes you a more reliable/trustworthy professional.

If you DO like AB's, that's equally fine....but many people here are just pointing out that fixing something that regularly breaks isn't something to brag about. Producing a product that rarely/never breaks IS.

Without actual hard numbers to back up any of the claims here the argument that PCB produces an inordinate number of duds is useless, from either side or the argument. PCB, by the very nature of their pricepoint, is going to ship a much higher volume and many of the issues Joe Random has with a PCB unit are going to be voiced in an equally high disproportion. Does anyone have hard numbers or are we going off acecdotes culled from public discussion forums?

I see a high number of QC issues and I see a high number of satisfied users. Human nature dictates the former will not be as representative of the truth as the latter.

Indecent Exposure wrote in post #12377342
Without actual hard numbers to back up any of the claims here the argument that PCB produces an inordinate number of duds is useless, from either side or the argument. PCB, by the very nature of their pricepoint, is going to ship a much higher volume and many of the issues Joe Random has with a PCB unit are going to be voiced in an equally high disproportion. Does anyone have hard numbers or are we going off acecdotes culled from public discussion forums?

I see a high number of QC issues and I see a high number of satisfied users. Human nature dictates the former will not be as representative of the truth as the latter.

It's true that I don't have any hard numbers, and I highly doubt those would be available (especially given Paul's relative inability to admit fault/design flaws), but I'm going off of years of forum-reading, and many stories from forum users. A thread about broken PCB product and their customer service pops up weekly, if not more often. PCB's products have needed multiple revisions, after their release/sale to the public. While the D-lite's needed a fan update, and pocket wizards recent offerings have been a flop...it's PCB products that seem to have dominated the need-for-revision list. Additionally, quite a few vocal forum members who've owned multiple lights have admitted that they've had to ship multiple lights/PLMs/etc back, yet haven't needed to do so with other brands. Also, my relatively limited experience with PCB products (limited because I stopped buying them because I needed gear I could better rely upon) taught me the same lesson: the first time I even picked up my vagabond II the strap/bag broke, and the ABR800 seemed to break in one manner or another (usually in the mount assembly) virtually weekly. Friends of mine who have owned PCB gear have experienced other things. So while I can't present any numbers for any of the companies, all I can do is go off of what I've seen for myself, heard from my friends, and read from fellow forum members.

I'm not saying PCB items are worthless junk....far from it. They provide a compelling product at a very low price-point. Additionaly, from everything that I've heard/experienced, PCB offers fantastic customer service and will usually exchange the defective/broken item for a new one. I am, however, saying that oftentimes for *very* little additional money, the other brands offer a competing product that is ready for consumption/use by the masses without a high rate of failure and need for "great customer service."

*Note* None of this refers to the white lighting line of products (designed in the 80's?) as they seem to be truly bombproof, both in design and in day-to-day usage....and the original AB's (AB800, etc) seem to also have a significantly lower failure rate than most of their current/recent offerings (although color temperature shifts are well documented). Not sure why the downward trend with recent products is occuring...some would say it's the cost of being at the "forefront" or the downturn in chinese manufacturing....other​s might say it has to do with the aging head of the company who seems more and more unable to take design criticism/feedback from others, both on the forum and in his factory.

Anyway, this is just my two cents. In the end, I think it's great that PCB created lights (referring to original Alien Bees here) that allowed so called "hobbyists" to be able to work with studio lighting at a lower pricepoint than what was available elsewhere at the time.....I just don't think that his products (especially newer offerings) should be considered to be so amazing with such a high failure/repair rate and quite a few other products at similar pricepoints currently available from other companies.

Edit: And before anyone labels me a "hater" please keep in mind that everything I've posted here was respectful and credit was given where credit is due...and all was taken from first-hand observations, experiences of friends, and of fellow photographers on forums. These are simply my observations.

very well written.

I bought five lights, one Einstein and one 1600 had to go back. No cost to me but time. I now seem to have 5 solid units. But 2 out of 5 is a little troublesome.

Still I love my Einsteins and don't really see a alternative in that price point.

Cathpah wrote in post #12378284
It's true that I don't have any hard numbers, and I highly doubt those would be available (especially given Paul's relative inability to admit fault/design flaws), but I'm going off of years of forum-reading, and many stories from forum users. A thread about broken PCB product and their customer service pops up weekly, if not more often. PCB's products have needed multiple revisions, after their release/sale to the public. While the D-lite's needed a fan update, and pocket wizards recent offerings have been a flop...it's PCB products that seem to have dominated the need-for-revision list. Additionally, quite a few vocal forum members who've owned multiple lights have admitted that they've had to ship multiple lights/PLMs/etc back, yet haven't needed to do so with other brands. Also, my relatively limited experience with PCB products (limited because I stopped buying them because I needed gear I could better rely upon) taught me the same lesson: the first time I even picked up my vagabond II the strap/bag broke, and the ABR800 seemed to break in one manner or another (usually in the mount assembly) virtually weekly. Friends of mine who have owned PCB gear have experienced other things. So while I can't present any numbers for any of the companies, all I can do is go off of what I've seen for myself, heard from my friends, and read from fellow forum members.

I'm not saying PCB items are worthless junk....far from it. They provide a compelling product at a very low price-point. Additionaly, from everything that I've heard/experienced, PCB offers fantastic customer service and will usually exchange the defective/broken item for a new one. I am, however, saying that oftentimes for *very* little additional money, the other brands offer a competing product that is ready for consumption/use by the masses without a high rate of failure and need for "great customer service."

*Note* None of this refers to the white lighting line of products (designed in the 80's?) as they seem to be truly bombproof, both in design and in day-to-day usage....and the original AB's (AB800, etc) seem to also have a significantly lower failure rate than most of their current/recent offerings. Not sure why the downward trend with recent products (some would say it's the cost of being at the "forefront" or the downturn in chinese manufacturing....other​s might say it has to do with the aging head of the company who seems more and more unable to take design criticism/feedback from others, both on the forum and in his factory).

Anyway, this is just my two cents. In the end, I think it's great that PCB created lights (referring to original Alien Bees here) that allowed so called "hobbyists" to be able to work with studio lighting at a lower pricepoint than what was available elsewhere at the time.....I just don't think that his products (especially newer offerings) should be considered to be so amazing with such a high failure/repair rate.

Edit: And before anyone labels me a "hater" please keep in mind that everything I've posted here was respectful and credit was given where credit is due...and all was taken from first-hand observations, experiences of friends, and of fellow photographers on forums. These are simply my observations.

You may very well be right. I just see an ownership ratio of 10-to-1 in favor of PCB (not scientific, obviously) so I expect to see complaints and quality issues somewhere in that neighborhood, as well. It doesn't seem disproportional.

But what does seem disproportional is how people count and weigh the complaints. And that seems common to the forum culture. It happens everywhere. A few vocal posters, armed with anecdotal evidence (at best), can color a debate to the point others feel confident to draw a conlusion one way of the other. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but if PCB's QC "problems" were truely systemic, I'd expect to see more. And I'd expect to see them slowly driven out of business - and the opposite is happening.

Customer service can only take you so far. It's the Best Buy principle - people rate customer service below reliability and price. Good customer service is a nice feature for a business to have, but relied on it wil drive you out of business.

Indecent Exposure wrote in post #12378414
but if PCB's QC "problems" were truely systemic, I'd expect to see more. And I'd expect to see them slowly driven out of business - and the opposite is happening.

Customer service can only take you so far. It's the Best Buy principle - people rate customer service below reliability and price. Good customer service is a nice feature for a business to have, but relied on it wil drive you out of business.

I would just look at the multiple versions of a single product...

A recall, is pretty bad thing to have in any industry, thats a widespread failure.

lens pirate wrote in post #12378388
I bought five lights, one Einstein and one 1600 had to go back. No cost to me but time. I now seem to have 5 solid units. But 2 out of 5 is a little troublesome.

Still I love my Einsteins and don't really see a alternative in that price point.

In my opinion...time is money, so buying 5 and having to return 2 is a pretty costly average. If you found those faults during testing/unboxing, then it hopefully was just an inconvenience. If, on the other hand, you found those faults while working with a client...that could literally mean a failed shoot, lost client and some bad word of mouth, which could turn out to be very costly.

Indecent Exposure wrote in post #12378414
You may very well be right. I just see an ownership ratio of 10-to-1 in favor of PCB (not scientific, obviously) so I expect to see complaints and quality issues somewhere in that neighborhood, as well. It doesn't seem disproportional.

But what does seem disproportional is how people count and weigh the complaints. And that seems common to the forum culture. It happens everywhere. A few vocal posters, armed with anecdotal evidence (at best), can color a debate to the point others feel confident to draw a conlusion one way of the other. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but if PCB's QC "problems" were truely systemic, I'd expect to see more. And I'd expect to see them slowly driven out of business - and the opposite is happening.

Customer service can only take you so far. It's the Best Buy principle - people rate customer service below reliability and price. Good customer service is a nice feature for a business to have, but relied on it wil drive you out of business.

I don't disagree with your first point. Most people that own PCB products stay fans of the products, mostly because of their low price and good customer service.

I don't, however, agree that those that are pointing out faults and their need to return are just a few overly-vocal posters. This thread, for instance, was started by someone who was raving about the customer service...not bashing PCB products. Frankly, I think that is how the majority of "my PCB product broke" stories emerge. Aside from those that admit fault but sing the praises of the company, I can only go off of my own experience (2 of 2 products that I've bought from PCB needed repair within a week of receiving the units, yet after owning 8 elinchrom lights that have seen heavy usage for years, I've only sent something back once...and received equally great customer service) and those of my friends (some of whom still own ABs). I fully agree that a few vocal posters can sway a discussion (especially on the internet), however I don't think that's the case in the situation (again, these are merely my opinions/experiences..​.not claiming any of this is gospel).

PCBs problems DO seem to be systematic to me. The Einstein is now on it's fourth(?) (2, 2.1, 2.2, 2.2a) revision, the PLM is on it's second (with obvious faults still present), the vagabond mini lithium has a very weak/faulty clamp, etc. Aside from that, I actually think the the newer version of the AB beauty dish took a step backward (went from curved/conical shape to now more or less a flat pie-pan shape)...again thought, purely my opinion.

Lastly, I fear that you may be wrong about the customer service issues not driving them out of business. Even if I'm not a PCB product buyer myself, I still appreciate their presence in the market (drive innovation, push down competitor prices)....but I've got to wonder just how much of a toll all the shipping cost, customer service call center costs, and labor costs of the seemingly endless revisions to the Einstein must have taken on the profits. Additionally, with Paul being the head honcho and doing "all of the design work himself" (his words) I fear that when he passes (he's getting up there in years), the company may suffer the same fate. His products are certainly popular these days, but all the revisions must have taken a good bite out of profits made after the intial/ongoing R&D investment.

In my opinion, having fabulous customer service will cause your customers to be very loyal to your company, but that's only helpful if it turns out to be financially viable. As someone currently living in Maine, the example of LL Bean often comes to mind, as they too are a company renowned for their great/no-questions-asked customer service. The main difference that I see, is that LL Bean is able to offer that because their products rarely fail, and therefore the cost of offering such a great product is easily sustainable. If, however, their tents leaked 2 out of 5 times I went camping...that would be too many wet/ruined camping trips for me to keep going back there for repair. I'd simply buy a tent that I could count on.

Cathpah wrote in post #12378651
Einstein is now on it's fourth(?) (2, 2.1, 2.2, 2.2a) revision
...
LL Bean is able to offer that because their products rarely fail, and therefore the cost of offering such a great product is easily sustainable.

I thought the Einstein was on it's 3rd? 1, 2.0 (heat fix, flash sensor in sunlight but added a finger issue), 2.1 (finger fix).
And FWIW, I've had two B1600s, one WL, and 3 Einsteins (1 of which was a V1). One B1600 was flaky on Vagabond power when used w/ the RJ11 control port. No issues w/ the Einsteins (never hit the V1 problems). I think PCB mentioned something like a sub 1% failure rate...it wasn't huge like 20-30% which seems like what it should be given all the problem reports posted; if it were that high, they would go out of business w/ the low margins they have (20%?)

Funny you should mention LL Bean though...I'm returning a folding camp table set...a plastic clip sheared off so the table isn't usable now. Too bad though...seemed decently built except for the plastic. Bought a chair from Costco and have to return it because the tilt mechanism doesn't work. They both have great CS and products though and I'm happy to shop at both...

Now this thread is a genuine rarity! It contains a civil, rational, well-thought-out presentation of the pros and cons of PCB's equipment and business practices. The discussion respects and gives credit to both points of view and hasn't degenerated into invective, insults, and name-calling. This is unacceptable and no fun to read at all! I think Jeff and James and Anton and Brian should all be banned from the forum immediately!

Dave F.