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FORUMS Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon Digital Cameras 
Thread started 29 Apr 2003 (Tuesday) 15:47
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lens question to end all lens questions

 
daveh
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May 01, 2003 10:50 |  #31

OK, as long as we're not trying to define other people's selection processes, here's mine:

1: Focal length. It feels funny listing this first but covering multiple focal lengths is the point.

2: Sharpness / performance in general. I suppose prime/zoom can be stuffed into this category also - as in I haven't found a zoom yet that was a long-term keeper. While I kidded the original poster about this thread and the one true criteria, my lenses do have "4.something" ratings on photodo. Photodo results alone are a tremendous simplification of lens parameters but I think they're a useful tool. When I first discovered Photodo, I learned that the lens I prefer above all others had a 4.6 rating so I figured that Photodo and I were a fairly good match.

3: Aperture. This is really hard to separate from the others. For example, while I may have been thinking 100mm, the 85 f1.2 won for speed and performance. Generally I look for 1.2 to 1.4 for wides, through mid telephotos. It gets a little more ambiguous at the high end. Also, I will sometimes give up SOME performance for speed so it's hard to keep #2 and #3 in strict order. For example, for a "standard lens" for my 10D, I looked at the 35mm f2 which had a Photodo 3.9 rating and the 35mm f1.4 which had a 4.0. Well that was a no-brainer but if those performance numbers had been reversed I would have still gone with the f1.4. On the other hand in the 50mm, the 1.4 seems like the "sweet spot" vs. the 1.0. (To me.)

4: Feel. It has nothing to do with the picture but I like a tool that really feels good when I use it. Sadly, I think the EF lenses don't quite measure up to FD lenses in this regard but I've finally given up on Canon producing an FD digital body ;-)a

Other factors are much more mutable/subjective/cha​ngeable. For example weight can be a very minor plus up to 200mm or so but can start to become a major minus after that.

Price does come in but over the long run (I've owned Canon SLRs for about 30 years now) I eventually end up with the lens I really want so there's always the question of how long a stop-gap lens will be used.

IS sounds nice but so far, all of my long telephotos are still in my FD line. As I'm converting those to EF I'll need to evaluate that.

Filter size doesn't matter as much to me as it once did as I'm using them less. I only recently gave a way a bunch of filters that I used exclusively with Infrared Ektachrome. Yep probably don't need those for the 10D...

That's just my way. Your mileage probably will vary.




  
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dcchan2
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May 01, 2003 23:52 |  #32

I have a Sigma Ex 70-200mm f2.8 HSM and find the image quality excellent. The MTF info confirms my subjective judgement.

The weighted MTF for 200mm f2.8 is significantly *higher* for the Sigma: 0.78 vs Canon's 0.73. The Canon's MTF is higher at shorter focal lengths, but not by as much.

Full data as follows:

Canon 70-200mm f2.8L USM
Weighted MTF for 70 mm: f2,8 0,75, f4 0,80, f8 0,78
Weighted MTF for 135 mm: f2,8 0,80, f4 0,85, f8 0,86
Weighted MTF for 200 mm: f2,8 0,73, f4 0,79, f8 0,82
Average Weighted MTF: 0,82 Grade: 4,1
Weighted MTF 10 lp/mm: 0,90
Weighted MTF 20 lp/mm: 0,78
Weighted MTF 40 lp/mm: 0,55

Sigma Ex 70-200mm f2.8 HSM
Weighted MTF for 70 mm: f2,8 0,73, f4 0,76, f8 0,75
Weighted MTF for 135 mm: f2,8 0,76, f4 0,84, f8 0,87
Weighted MTF for 200 mm: f2,8 0,78, f4 0,81, f8 0,81
Average Weighted MTF: 0,81 Grade: 3,9
Weighted MTF 10 lp/mm: 0,89
Weighted MTF 20 lp/mm: 0,77
Weighted MTF 40 lp/mm: 0,54

justme_dc wrote:
so if you look at the MTF info at: http://www.photodo.com​/nav/prodindex.html (external link)
is shows that the Canon lenses have much higher ratings across the board than Sigma and the Tamron glass is usually even lower. Now I see a lot of arguing back and forth over Canon glass being better than the others or sigma being just as good but the MTF number don't lie so what is the real deal?

There shouldn't be an argument at all really. Canon is consistently better and commands the highest price. Sigma is not as good but much cheaper. Tamron is usually in third and it's price reflects that.

I can't see how people can say my "brand X" lens is just as good as the Canon version when clearly (no pun intended) it isn't.

I am not saying that "Brand X" doesn't make some good glass but the numbers don't lie...

Opinions?




  
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brault
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Joined Apr 2003
     
May 02, 2003 09:29 |  #33

The basic MTF numbers at Photodo are helpful, but not determinative. First, there is some subjectivity in measuring MTF. Second, the MTF for contrast and the MTF for sharpness are independently important. In color photography the MTF for contrast may be more important than the MTF for sharpness and for black and white photography the MTF for sharpness may be more important. Then there are other factors such as distortion and flare. Third, manufacturing quality varies and different lenses of the same model may give different results.

I look at as many reviews as I can find when considering a lens, including reports from owners. Results can be surprising. For example, Photodo rates the Canon 28-70mm 2.8L at 39 and the Canon 24-85mm f3.5,4.5 at 31. Yet when DPR tested the D30 they found that the resolution of the 24-85 was as good as the 28-70L and Image Resource in their test of the D30 said that the 24-85 outperformed the 28-70L "overall". Now it could be they had a particularly good 24-85 and a very average 28-70L.




  
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droosan
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200 posts
Joined Jul 2002
     
May 02, 2003 15:31 |  #34

Canon makes some great lenses (and some not-so great lenses).

But the best lens is the one on your camera, right now, because it is the only lens that can take a picture, right now.

If you can afford L, buy L. If you can't, buy something else. What you buy is unimportant compared to how you use it.




  
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martcol
Senior Member
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Location: Kent, UK
     
May 03, 2003 01:27 |  #35

droosan wrote:
...the best lens is the one on your camera, right now

Yeh!

My buying criteria?

1) What fraction of a month's (Year's for L :() salary does it cost.
2) will it look good stuck to my 10D?
3) Will I look good with both stuck to me? 8)
4) What do people on this forum think 'cos I really haven't got a clue?
5) And then all that other stuff about, what was it, aperture, focal length....

:D

I am currently using a 50 mm 1.8 because lots of people said you couldn't go wrong with this - absolutely right! And a really tat, ebayed (payed more than I should've) 35-80 but, with both lenses, I get some fabulous results. Good colour, focus, quick, etc. I love my 10D!


"All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth."
Richard Avedon
www.imagesandwords.org​.uk (external link)

  
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piratefishka
Hatchling
4 posts
Joined Jan 2005
Location: Kirkland
     
Jan 20, 2005 21:55 as a reply to  @ post 47206 |  #36

I have found that buying the best golf clubs does not equate to playing golf well. I suspect that there are those who know their equipment, however inferior it may be,well enough to create an image that is magical, and others who no matter how much they spend on equipment, will find a way to fall short. A famous Seattle photographer died recently (sorry can not recall his name) and there was a documentary on his work. Beautiful! His favorate camera? Konica 35mm.




  
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Bodog
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Jan 20, 2005 22:19 as a reply to  @ post 47206 |  #37

RE: MTF charts. It was my understanding that Canon's MTF charts are based on theoretical performance, not actual testing...


JimE
Color? It's all relative...

  
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Ajay213
Member
37 posts
Joined Nov 2004
Location: S Florida
     
Jan 21, 2005 07:55 |  #38

The ability for a lens to resolve objects is it's only job, what other criteria would you have me use?

A sharp lens is absolutely worthless if it screws up colors. It's not worth much if it has piss poor contrast, etc. None of those things can be "tested" for. Both of which have a role as important or more so than sharpness in a lens.

I have found that buying the best golf clubs does not equate to playing golf well. I suspect that there are those who know their equipment, however inferior it may be,well enough to create an image that is magical, and others who no matter how much they spend on equipment, will find a way to fall short.

That needs to be bolded, put in it's own post and made required reading for anybody trying to take pictures.
$500 basketball shoes will not endanger any of Michael Jordon's records.
$5,000 tennis racket will not get me an invite to Wimbleton.
$10,000 word processing machine will not make me an award winning novelist.
$2,000 lens will not make me a better photographer.

But the best lens is the one on your camera, right now, because it is the only lens that can take a picture, right now.

If you can afford L, buy L. If you can't, buy something else. What you buy is unimportant compared to how you use it.

Even more great points.

Don't be an Equipment Measurbator (external link), if your "portfolio" consists of more pictures of test charts, bar codes, etc than it does of "real" pictures then IMHO you are missing a lot of the joys of photography.

Now to completely go in the other direction, and as others have said, if you can afford L glass then absolutely go out and buy it. It is the best glass out there for Canon, others get close but none have surpassed L quality. But if you are sitting at home tomorrow instead of out taking pictures because of your lack of L glass than hop onto Andorama, buy an ultra-cheap used lens and go take some pictures (with the end result of you being a photographer when you finally do get that L glass).

Andrew




  
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OviV
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Location: Miami, FL
     
Jan 21, 2005 08:18 |  #39

How do you guys find and revive these dusty old threads. I realized it was old when I read CDS's post about not having much money to spend on a new Telephoto lens. Boy did he lose his fiscal conservativeness in a hurry. ;)


5D, 40D, Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX, Sigma 15MM Fisheye,17-40 L, 24-105 L, 50 1.8, Tamron 28-75 2.8, Sigma 70-200 2.8, 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS, 100-400 L, 300 F4 L, 580 ex, Sigma 500 Super DG Flash x 2, too much other stuff to list.

  
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2new
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Jan 21, 2005 09:06 as a reply to  @ OviV's post |  #40

Boy did he lose his fiscal conservativeness in a hurry. ;)

Resistance is futile - CDS’ fall from fiscally responsible behavior is the second of many signs that you have become one of US. This site should come with a Warning label!

I remember sweating over my first camera purchase, than the lens, and I kept telling myself that I could stop at any time. I don’t have a problem. It’s a good hobby that could someday become a career…

That was until I made the mistake of purchasing my first L –Glass. I ordered the 17-40 f/4 for a trip to Sedona AZ. My first shots with the glass were taken there. WOW – I loved it. I liked it so much that I ordered a 70-200mm f/4 shipped to the hotel where I was staying. How was I going to pay for all of this??? ???

I’d figure that out later…

5 lenses later I can only think of my next wildlife lens.. 500mm Prime or do I go for the 600? All I know for certain is that 'This is going to hurt'

Fortunately now, I have my paycheck direct deposited into B&H’s account to save me the trouble

Resistance is futile :p

Michael


Michael Cassidy
www.mCassidy.com (external link)

  
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CyberDyneSystems
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Jan 21, 2005 09:35 |  #41

Oviv & 2ew,..
:lol:
Man I was allready laughing over this revived thread before I even got to your new posts... it's hard to beleive it has only about to years since I had yet to get an "L"

Now all but one of my kit is Canon top shelf glass!

Truly I was "assimilated"

However I will mention one thing about the original post.. I have learned that it remains true, despite what the MTF charts and the Canon purists say.. there are VERY good lenses to be had that are not made by Canon.

My most important lens to me is still a Sigma (my 500mm f/4.5 prime) it holds up to scrutiny compared to the 200mm f/1.8 (no it's not it's equal,. but they are apples and oranges anyways) It sure beats the Canon at 500mm though! ;)

Ergonomically the Sigma is FAR better designed than the really difficult to handle 200mm f/1.8... and this is one of Canon's absolute best lenses ever made.

Also,. (and this is directed again at the original post) like all things in life.. this is allways going to be about making a compromise.

If we were all allways in a postiton to own the best there is,. then there would be very little coflict or competition in this discussion.

We'd all have lenese that are the absolute best and function flawlessly on our Cameras.... (most likely these perfect lenses would then be made in germany... not by Canon)

But thats a fantasy land.

Price allways plays an important role.. yes we can throw caution to the wind as I have on occasion and splurge every so often :rolleyes:

But we still have budgets.. if we didn't (if I didn't) we'd have 600mm f/4 IS all around :)

I chose a lens that cost 1/5th the price of the Canon 600mm...

Many chose the excellent Tamron 28-75mm over the Canon which costs 4 to 5 times as much.

Lastly of course,. I have said this before,. Canon does not have an answer to every competitive lens out there. Sigma in particular has Telephoto zoom options that are not only completley unique to there line,. but are also of such top notch build quality and design that Canon woul be hard pressed to match ,.. and if they did the cost would most likely be double.

(I speak of the 100-300mm f/4, 120-300mm f/2.8 and 300-800mm ..among others,.. all Sigma EX lenses and all lenses that Canon has NOTHING remotely like them.)

Sure if price were no object,. if Canon had all the answers,.. etc etc.. but this is not the real world.


GEAR LIST
CDS' HOT LINKS
Jake Hegnauer Photography (external link)

  
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KurtKuhn
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Location: Delawhere?
     
Jan 21, 2005 10:54 as a reply to  @ 2new's post |  #42

...I have my paycheck direct deposited into B&H’s account to save me the trouble


2new, great punch line to a good thread worth reading. :lol:

-KK


___________
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DrebelXT, BG-E3, 24-70L, 70-200 f/4L, 580-EX, Bogen 3021BPRO, Kirk BH-3, Lowepro Nova 3 AW

  
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lens question to end all lens questions
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