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Thread started 09 May 2011 (Monday) 12:42
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Why do (some) ppl think 60D not worth getting?

 
Canon_Lover
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May 11, 2011 06:32 |  #136

Keyan wrote in post #12388182 (external link)
Oddly, tens of thousands of people seem to take great pictures that are tack-sharp without AF microadjust. Lots of people are still posting complaints about their 7D being soft with it. Maybe it's just one of those features for crazy OCD people to try to justify their more expensive camera?

True for the 60D. Canon has really upped their quality control with the 60D AF system. It is very very very rare for anyone to have focus issues with the 60D and it is not due to a lack of using demanding glass.

If you search enough, like I did, you will find people have had to do MA on all their lenses with the 7D or 50D, but for some reason all of them focus dead on with the 60D.

MA is a crutch and band-aid fix to a poorly aligned body and/or lens. It was only ever designed into Canon's cameras to provide a temporary fix for a lens or body that has gone out of alignment when way out in BFE with photos that need taking and no access to Canon to a long time. Rumor has it that one of their pros some years ago was out in the field and his telephoto lens bumped out of alignment and he lost a lot of work due to using MF. Canon added the feature, but not as a permanent fix to having your lenses calibrated by them. Most obvious by the fact that it does not work on zoom lenses for all focal lengths.

Canon actually has a patent on file, I believe filed in 2009, which is a automatic focus adjust system. It has been rumored that Canon quietly put this system into the 60D, which can account for miss-aligned lenses to a small degree. Not a silver bullet, but it could explain why so many lenses work perfectly with the 60D and not other bodies.

While MA is not something that would have hurt being on the 60D, it has proven to not be the huge issue that so many people balloon it out into being.

Seeing as how Canon probably spends a lot of money calibrating lenses to bodies, it would much in their best interest to create an automated system that handles that duty for free.


Caveat: MA would be super useful as a bump to front focus or back focus on object that are quickly running at and away from the camera. If MA was used to front focus, the Camera could be more dead on when tracking objects coming quickly at the camera when a thin DOF is used.


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May 11, 2011 06:49 |  #137
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You shock me! anyway its interesting but is it true? canon did add the MA in the 60D it not in my manual

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388330 (external link)
True for the 60D. Canon has really upped their quality control with the 60D AF system. It is very very very rare for anyone to have focus issues with the 60D and it is not due to a lack of using demanding glass. camera when a thin DOF is used.


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yourdoinitwrong
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May 11, 2011 06:53 |  #138

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388330 (external link)
True for the 60D. Canon has really upped their quality control with the 60D AF system. It is very very very rare for anyone to have focus issues with the 60D and it is not due to a lack of using demanding glass.

If you search enough, like I did, you will find people have had to do MA on all their lenses with the 7D or 50D, but for some reason all of them focus dead on with the 60D.

MA is a crutch and band-aid fix to a poorly aligned body and/or lens.
It was only ever designed into Canon's cameras to provide a temporary fix for a lens or body that has gone out of alignment when way out in BFE with photos that need taking and no access to Canon to a long time. Rumor has it that one of their pros some years ago was out in the field and his telephoto lens bumped out of alignment and he lost a lot of work due to using MF. Canon added the feature, but not as a permanent fix to having your lenses calibrated by them. Most obvious by the fact that it does not work on zoom lenses for all focal lengths.

Canon actually has a patent on file, I believe filed in 2009, which is a automatic focus adjust system. It has been rumored that Canon quietly put this system into the 60D, which can account for miss-aligned lenses to a small degree. Not a silver bullet, but it could explain why so many lenses work perfectly with the 60D and not other bodies.

While MA is not something that would have hurt being on the 60D, it has proven to not be the huge issue that so many people balloon it out into being.

Seeing as how Canon probably spends a lot of money calibrating lenses to bodies, it would much in their best interest to create an automated system that handles that duty for free.


Caveat: MA would be super useful as a bump to front focus or back focus on object that are quickly running at and away from the camera. If MA was used to front focus, the Camera could be more dead on when tracking objects coming quickly at the camera when a thin DOF is used.

So you are saying that somehow every lens is magically, perfectly calibrated to every 60D but the 7D and 5D2 are such junk they need MA? Sorry, I'm not buying that. There are production tolerances for every product and you may have a lens that is perfectly calibrated to one body, but mount it to another of the same type and it can be off. If Canon had some type of auto adjusting system in the 60D I'm sure they would be shouting it from the rooftops. You would be much more likely to see such a system in the 1D series or 7D as my guess is that it would take a decent amount of computing power to do all the things a processor has to do and then do auto MA on top of that.


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Keyan
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May 11, 2011 06:55 |  #139

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388330 (external link)
True for the 60D. Canon has really upped their quality control with the 60D AF system. It is very very very rare for anyone to have focus issues with the 60D and it is not due to a lack of using demanding glass.

If you search enough, like I did, you will find people have had to do MA on all their lenses with the 7D or 50D, but for some reason all of them focus dead on with the 60D.

MA is a crutch and band-aid fix to a poorly aligned body and/or lens. It was only ever designed into Canon's cameras to provide a temporary fix for a lens or body that has gone out of alignment when way out in BFE with photos that need taking and no access to Canon to a long time. Rumor has it that one of their pros some years ago was out in the field and his telephoto lens bumped out of alignment and he lost a lot of work due to using MF. Canon added the feature, but not as a permanent fix to having your lenses calibrated by them. Most obvious by the fact that it does not work on zoom lenses for all focal lengths.

Canon actually has a patent on file, I believe filed in 2009, which is a automatic focus adjust system. It has been rumored that Canon quietly put this system into the 60D, which can account for miss-aligned lenses to a small degree. Not a silver bullet, but it could explain why so many lenses work perfectly with the 60D and not other bodies.

While MA is not something that would have hurt being on the 60D, it has proven to not be the huge issue that so many people balloon it out into being.

Seeing as how Canon probably spends a lot of money calibrating lenses to bodies, it would much in their best interest to create an automated system that handles that duty for free.


Caveat: MA would be super useful as a bump to front focus or back focus on object that are quickly running at and away from the camera. If MA was used to front focus, the Camera could be more dead on when tracking objects coming quickly at the camera when a thin DOF is used.

If the AF system was designed to auto-correct on the 60D that would explain why there is no MA...and as you said why people can take just about any lens and drop it on the 60D and take pictures with better focus than ones they have had to MA on the 7D. I'm somewhat surprised that they wouldn't communicate it out if it had that feature, unless to do so they thought it would mean admitting that a lot of people have to use it for their lenses.


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Keyan
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May 11, 2011 07:05 |  #140

Keyan wrote in post #12388389 (external link)
If the AF system was designed to auto-correct on the 60D that would explain why there is no MA...and as you said why people can take just about any lens and drop it on the 60D and take pictures with better focus than ones they have had to MA on the 7D. I'm somewhat surprised that they wouldn't communicate it out if it had that feature, unless to do so they thought it would mean admitting that a lot of people have to use it for their lenses.

Or that it would really cannibalize sales of the 7D?


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May 11, 2011 07:24 |  #141

yourdoinitwrong wrote in post #12388385 (external link)
So you are saying that somehow every lens is magically, perfectly calibrated to every 60D but the 7D and 5D2 are such junk they need MA?

Yes to a certain extent. I never found a single person whose lens worked fine on one camera and not on the 60D (if not a lemon). I HAVE found posts from people who's lenses needed MA on the other bodies, but not on the 60D.

There are rare but certain instances where lenses don't focus on the 60D either because they are so far out of alignment or because their copy of the 60D is bad. There are bad copies out there, but nothing close to other models, including the Nikon D7000.

This system (if implemented) would likely add some time to how long it takes the camera to gain focus. That is not a feature you would want for a camera built for speed like the 7D.


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May 11, 2011 07:26 |  #142

Keyan wrote in post #12388182 (external link)
Lots of people are still posting complaints about their 7D being soft with it.

If only they would take the time to learn the 7D, how it works, how to use it and how to manipulate the data it creates.

MA will not fix, user error.

However as great as Canon's QC is with its camera bodies ( I have two 7D's and both are fantastic - save for one failed battery ) and lenses ... Canon has no control over 3rd party lenses and this is where MA can come in handy.

What would you rather do?

Send in your Canon body and or 3rd Party Lens to be calibrated, one to the other?
-OR-
Use an internal system and make the adjustment yourself?

MA adjust is just another tool that Canon has given users on some camera bodies, perhaps Canon does not trust that everyone can properly use MA and thus only includes the feature on cameras it expects users can.

Have to ask Canon about that, I guess.

The 60D camera body is a good camera body for its targeted market and that should be all that matters.

The 7D is a great camera body for its targeted market and that should be all that matters.

.




  
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May 11, 2011 07:27 |  #143

It amazes me how much people will try to tell you why their camera is the better choice. If it is good, then use it and be happy. My 50D works great for me, and I am sure your 60D works great for you. Amazing how that works, ain't it?


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May 11, 2011 07:30 |  #144

harcosparky wrote in post #12388477 (external link)
If only they would take the time to learn the 7D, how it works, how to use it and how to manipulate the data it creates.

MA will not fix, user error.

However as great as Canon's QC is with its camera bodies ( I have two 7D's and both are fantastic - save for one failed battery ) and lenses ... Canon has no control over 3rd party lenses and this is where MA can come in handy.

What would you rather do?

Send in your Canon body and or 3rd Party Lens to be calibrated, one to the other?
-OR-
Use an internal system and make the adjustment yourself?

MA adjust is just another tool that Canon has given users on some camera bodies, perhaps Canon does not trust that everyone can properly use MA and thus only includes the feature on cameras it expects users can.

Have to ask Canon about that, I guess.

The 60D camera body is a good camera body for its targeted market and that should be all that matters.

The 7D is a great camera body for its targeted market and that should be all that matters.

.

The issue with MA and not having calibrated lenses are completely different. MA only works for one focal length at one focusing distance range. It is not a system for replacing the Canon calibration and was never intended as such. It is only a little helper when you don't have access or time to get it fixed.

Search MA and zooms and you will see what I am talking about.


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May 11, 2011 07:38 |  #145

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388471 (external link)
Yes to a certain extent. I never found a single person whose lens worked fine on one camera and not on the 60D (if not a lemon). I HAVE found posts from people who's lenses needed MA on the other bodies, but not on the 60D.

There are rare but certain instances where lenses don't focus on the 60D either because they are so far out of alignment or because their copy of the 60D is bad. There are bad copies out there, but nothing close to other models, including the Nikon D7000.

This system (if implemented) would likely add some time to how long it takes the camera to gain focus. That is not a feature you would want for a camera built for speed like the 7D.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. It's apparent that you are convinced of your stance, as I am mine. But unless you work for a survey company or hang around an inordinate amount of photographers who own not only a 60D but multiple other bodies, your sampling pool has to be too small to make such a generalization. If Canon publicizes the fact that certain bodies have manual MA then auto MA would be so revolutionary that they wouldn't quietly slip it in there.


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May 11, 2011 07:48 |  #146

harcosparky wrote in post #12385065 (external link)
you know what's really funny?

people trying to debate CF cards vs. SD cards.

How many other forms of digital media cards has the CF outlasted? outperformed?

How many people are using SmartMedia cards? Remember when they came out, how they were gonna replace CF cards? :rolleyes:

I remember SmartMedia cards having compatibility issues with SmartMedia cameras because of format compatibility issues.

Yet the CF card has a standard interface and will work in all CF devices across the board.

I'd venture to say some of those arguing for the SD cards 'superiority' don't even know there was a card called " SmartMedia".

Something will come along someday and make SD cards obsolete ... and that pesky old CF card will still be around.

To date the CF Card has outlasted all that came before and after it! :D


.

CF cards are on their downward spiral out. They will be mainstream maybe 3-5 years yet, but past that, we will have new media types, whether it is SD or some of the newer standards in the works. I liken CF cards to DVDs, DVDs are on their way out as well, but will be around for quite some time, and have had a very long life on the market.

With the design of 95MB/s read and 80MB/s write speeds on the newest SDHC, for example, it shows what future designs are headed our way. The biggest hurdle to how this progresses will be how fast "standards" (notice the plurality instead of a single standard) are adopted by manufacturers. The most popular will become the standard, I expect, instead of the standard being developed first, and all storage meeting that standard.


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May 11, 2011 08:46 |  #147

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388330 (external link)
If you search enough, like I did, you will find people have had to do MA on all their lenses with the 7D or 50D, but for some reason all of them focus dead on with the 60D.

And here's what really happens....

7D owner: Wow! My new 367mm Canigmako lens is fantastic. Oh, wait, let me try using MA on it. <possible tiny improvement later>. Wow! MA is fantastic.

60D owner: Wow! My new 367mm Canigmako lens is fantastic.

It's a MICRO focus adjustment. It does very very small adjustements. Very, very small adjustments that are normally hardly noticeable. If MA were available on a 60D it's certain that some of these 60D users would find that their AF isn't quite as 'dead on' as they thought.


Oh, if any 60D owners would like to check to see if they would benefit from MA, try this test...

Set up a proper focus test chart (like this one (external link)) so that it's flat, parallel to the sensor and just fills the frame. Make sure the camera is on a stable tripod, lighting is good enough to give a fast shutter speed and a remote release is being used. Now go into live mode and make sure that the AF is set to 'Quick' mode (p. 165) and take an image. Now change the AF to 'Live mode (p. 160) and take another image. If the 'Live' mode image is sharper then you would benefit from MA.


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May 11, 2011 08:51 |  #148

Canon_Lover wrote in post #12388330 (external link)
It has been rumored that Canon quietly put this system into the 60D, which can account for miss-aligned lenses to a small degree. Not a silver bullet, but it could explain why so many lenses work perfectly with the 60D and not other bodies.

It could do - if it wasn't all a total fantasy.

The normal EOS AF system is an open loop. There is no feedback whereby the camera and the lens can communicate back and forth to improve the accuracy of the focus. The AF sensor figures out how far the lens needs to move to focus the image, tells the lens to move that far - and that's the end of the process. Besides, if such a system were included Canon would be shouting it from the rooftops.


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May 11, 2011 09:00 |  #149

hollis_f wrote in post #12388833 (external link)
It could do - if it wasn't all a total fantasy.

The normal EOS AF system is an open loop. There is no feedback whereby the camera and the lens can communicate back and forth to improve the accuracy of the focus. The AF sensor figures out how far the lens needs to move to focus the image, tells the lens to move that far - and that's the end of the process. Besides, if such a system were included Canon would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Agreed. The only way this system could work is if they introduced a process where you select it, and it goes through a calibration process using Live View/Contrast focusing. AF, then flip to Live View, use contrast AF, note the focus step count differences and adjust, then repeat. This would be neat, but it would require a pretty controlled setup by the user to make sure they have a high contrast object filling the center of the frame with very good lighting. Even this process wouldn't be perfect though, but could help get a user to a setting more quickly than the current trial and error, or binary search method.


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May 11, 2011 09:01 |  #150

TeamSpeed wrote in post #12388567 (external link)
With the design of 95MB/s read and 80MB/s write speeds on the newest SDHC, for example, it shows what future designs are headed our way.

Yes, but what a shame that there aren't any cameras that can actually take advantage of those speeds. Because SD isn't a standard - it's a hotch-potch.


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