Converting & Saving in DPP

Well, I don't have any of the newer bodies with the huge files so can't give you pointers about dealing with them specifically. The best I can suggest is running tests of smaller portions of the images at small print sizes so that you can eyeball the results before you go for large prints. Remember that you will view large prints at a distance so hold the smaller prints out a bit to view them.

A lot of people do apply "output sharpening" to an image specifically sized for a print, especially for a large on. Like if you are preparing for a 20x30" print, you may want to specifically resize an image to 20"x30" at say 250 or 300 ppi -- that will resample the actual image -- do this as a tiff then reopen it and apply a fair amount of sharpening and then convert and save the final jpeg. It will of course be a larger file but may produce more pleasing results.

You can do this all in DPP, although a lot of people resort to Photoshop-type programs for that type of fine-tuning.

Like I said, test things out and over time you should find a workflow you are happy with.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12536734
Tony,

Thanks very much - getting familiar with DPP - not a bad program for just adding some sharpening (didn't have to do that with my 40D but for some reason the 7D images seems to need it - or is that because they are at 18mp vs 10mp and I'm just thinking I need to sharpen?); cropping and converting.

I wanted to sent some off to a lab just to see if the images are really soft of its what I mentioned above.

Thanks for all the help.

Are you using the same lens with both bodies? and are you manually focusing or using Auto Focus?

If you're using Auto Focus you might need to adjust the AF Microadjustment for each lens on your 7D camera body.

http://www.canonrumors​.com …-is-soft-and-other-myths/

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk …s3_af_micoadjus​tment.html

I recommend testing by mounting each camera body on a tripod use the same lens and take two shots with each body of the same object. One shot using Auto focus and the other manually focusing. Then compare both sets of shots in DPP.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12536734
Tony,

Thanks very much - getting familiar with DPP - not a bad program for just adding some sharpening (didn't have to do that with my 40D but for some reason the 7D images seems to need it - or is that because they are at 18mp vs 10mp and I'm just thinking I need to sharpen?); cropping and converting.

I wanted to sent some off to a lab just to see if the images are really soft of its what I mentioned above.

Thanks for all the help.

While it true that the right way to sharpen is at 100% zoom in order to catch any artifacts as they first appear, you should also keep in mind that a 100% zoom of a 40D is around 39 inches across and from a 7D it's around 52 in. !/3 larger linearly. For a larger print you would stand further away, so the loss of sharpness due to more enlargement is somewhat compensated.

tkerr wrote in post #12536907
Are you using the same lens with both bodies? and are you manually focusing or using Auto Focus?

If you're using Auto Focus you might need to adjust the AF Microadjustment for each lens on your 7D camera body.

http://www.canonrumors​.com …-is-soft-and-other-myths/

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk …s3_af_micoadjus​tment.html

I recommend testing by mounting each camera body on a tripod use the same lens and take two shots with each body of the same object. One shot using Auto focus and the other manually focusing. Then compare both sets of shots in DPP.

Thanks for the information.

Yes, I'm using the same lenses - its just that the same image from the 7D (same ISO, f-stop, shutter speed) seems soft all over. And I didn't think that was something a micro-adjust would fix. Been told its the Anit-Alising filter in the 7D being stronger that those images would require post sharpening.

That's why I wanted to get a couple of lab prints @ 8x10 to see if its just the computer monitor, my eyes, or really a difference in the bodies. Then again, I was also told that the 7D "requires better glass!" Hate that - my lenses seemed sharp on the 40D - but again, its only 10mp so I thought resizing the 7D to the same image size of the 40D may show something, too.

Thanks very much to everyone for the "getting started" help on DPP.

How are you defining "sharpness"? There are two general definitions -- the "technical" one and what you could call the "aesthetic" or "overall look" one.

Technical sharpness is the ability of a camera/lens combo to distinguish fine detail and render it in a way that will hold up under a reasonable amoung of enlargement. This is best judged at a 100% view.

The other type is where you look at the picture as a whole and say "My, that's a nice sharp picture!" It has less to do with the finest detail and more to do with how the overall scene comes across in terms of contrast that can make things pop out.

There are other factors as well. You mentioned anti-aliasing filters which most digital cameras use to deal with certain digital arifacts and so cause a bit of softenting which needs to be dealt with in post-processing. And, like you said, some cameras tend to have a stronger filter, possibly because those who push the limits of resolution tend more toward the problem.

But, The way to test and compare the 7D and the 40D images would be something like this: load them both into the Edit window (Select them both then click the Edit Window toolbar, or Ctl-Right Arrow, or Right-click and choose Edit in Edit image window).

Both images should open and show in the filmstrip with one in the preview window. You will note that in the toolbar there are buttons for a 50% magnification, a 100% magnification and a 200% magnification.

If you view the 40D file at 100% magnification and the 7D at 50%, you will be looking at similar image sizes and views, I imagine, and it would be interesting to see how the two compare. Then, go to 100% and apply some "input sharpening" to the 7D file and see if that makes a difference.

I have heard that a lot of people routinely apply input sharpening at a certain level to all their 7D files to get them "up to snuff" but not having one, I hesitate from getting involved with such discussions!

Another thing to try is in-camera sharpening settings -- see if boosting them a bit helps with the 7D. Or, for experimentation, see if shooting an in-camera jpeg with higher sharpening makes an image look better "out of camera" to give you a bit of a clue as to how Canon processes the 7D.

tonylong wrote in post #12537418
How are you defining "sharpness"? There are two general definitions -- the "technical" one and what you could call the "aesthetic" or "overall look" one.

Technical sharpness is the ability of a camera/lens combo to distinguish fine detail and render it in a way that will hold up under a reasonable amoung of enlargement. This is best judged at a 100% view.

The other type is where you look at the picture as a whole and say "My, that's a nice sharp picture!" It has less to do with the finest detail and more to do with how the overall scene comes across in terms of contrast that can make things pop out.

There are other factors as well. You mentioned anti-aliasing filters which most digital cameras use to deal with certain digital arifacts and so cause a bit of softenting which needs to be dealt with in post-processing. And, like you said, some cameras tend to have a stronger filter, possibly because those who push the limits of resolution tend more toward the problem.

But, The way to test and compare the 7D and the 40D images would be something like this: load them both into the Edit window (Select them both then click the Edit Window toolbar, or Ctl-Right Arrow, or Right-click and choose Edit in Edit image window).

Both images should open and show in the filmstrip with one in the preview window. You will note that in the toolbar there are buttons for a 50% magnification, a 100% magnification and a 200% magnification.

If you view the 40D file at 100% magnification and the 7D at 50%, you will be looking at similar image sizes and views, I imagine, and it would be interesting to see how the two compare. Then, go to 100% and apply some "input sharpening" to the 7D file and see if that makes a difference.

I have heard that a lot of people routinely apply input sharpening at a certain level to all their 7D files to get them "up to snuff" but not having one, I hesitate from getting involved with such discussions!

Another thing to try is in-camera sharpening settings -- see if boosting them a bit helps with the 7D. Or, for experimentation, see if shooting an in-camera jpeg with higher sharpening makes an image look better "out of camera" to give you a bit of a clue as to how Canon processes the 7D.

Tony - thanks, that's interesting. I assume your instructions apply to DPP and not LR.

Does it make any difference if sharpening is applied to the RAW before converting to jpeg or is there a benefit to applying the sharpening to the converted jpeg before printing?

Final sharpening should be applied after resizing.
LR incorporates output sharpening in its Export routine which is adaptive, adjusting itself to do the proper sharpening for the amount of resizing done. This is separate and different from the earlier (pre-resizing) sharpening set in Develop/Detail.
DPP sharpens just once, before resizing. If you don't resize the output file (tif or jpg), this may be enough. However, if outputting a rendered file is combined with significant resizing, it may need additional sharpening.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12538917
Does it make any difference if sharpening is applied to the RAW before converting to jpeg or is there a benefit to applying the sharpening to the converted jpeg before printing?

All your adjustments should preferably be done to the Raw file first. Once you are satisfied then convert/save to a jpeg.

Relating to film photography think of a Raw image file as an undeveloped negative and it's up to you to develop it how you want.
A Jpeg would be equal to the print. It has already been developed.

In Digital Photography you can get away with making some minor adjustments to a Jpeg, but since it is a Lossy image format and only 8 bits vs the Raw 16 bit, you are already working with less image data available for any post processing.

tzalman wrote in post #12539214
DPP sharpens just once, before resizing. If you don't resize the output file (tif or jpg), this may be enough. However, if outputting a rendered file is combined with significant resizing, it may need additional sharpening.

Elie, What Interpolation method is DPP using when Resizing? I know you cannot choose like you can in other software, but it must be using some kind.

Tony & Eli -

Is there a way I could send either of you two images - one from the 40D and one from the 7D - no processing, just converted to jpeg - and have you look at them?

I don't have access to a web host and posting here, the resolution is so small, I don't think you could see the sharpness/softness.

Thanks

One more DPP question - is there a way, once I set the Aspect Ration (say 4x5) to have that "crop box" open fully without having to drag it open? Any keyboard command, etc. that would open it to the full dimension? And then I can just reposition it? I just notice that LR does this when you set the Aspect Ratio - the crop box opens to that size.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12539347
Tony & Eli -

Is there a way I could send either of you two images - one from the 40D and one from the 7D - no processing, just converted to jpeg - and have you look at them?

I don't have access to a web host and posting here, the resolution is so small, I don't think you could see the sharpness/softness.

Thanks

Post a couple of "100% crops". That is a small section, say 600x600 pixels, that has been cropped out of an unresized image. Its name comes from the fact that because of its small size it is easy to view at 100%. It's what we post when discussing sharpness because resizing would change the natural sharpness. Choose a section that is a good example of what you are wondering about and in DPP give them both the same slight default sharpen - 2 or 3. Or in LR the default 25/1/25/0 and no output sharpening.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12539856
One more DPP question - is there a way, once I set the Aspect Ration (say 4x5) to have that "crop box" open fully without having to drag it open? Any keyboard command, etc. that would open it to the full dimension? And then I can just reposition it? I just notice that LR does this when you set the Aspect Ratio - the crop box opens to that size.

Yeah, that's one of DPP's endearing little quirks, it makes you work for your crop.

Roxie2401 wrote in post #12539856
One more DPP question - is there a way, once I set the Aspect Ration (say 4x5) to have that "crop box" open fully without having to drag it open? Any keyboard command, etc. that would open it to the full dimension? And then I can just reposition it? I just notice that LR does this when you set the Aspect Ratio - the crop box opens to that size.

If your camera supports it, (my 1D3 does), you can set the aspect ratio in camera. DPP will see that, and center the image in the crop.

Is this what you meant? I see the file size is different and is that due to the sensor density in the camera? 10mp vs 18 mp?

Here are two examples - 40D crop and 7D crop - I left the resolution at 350 and made the size 350 x 350 with sharpness set = 3.

If you want a larger sample at 72 dpi, please let me know.

These were both taken with the same lens from the same location. The 7D just seems much softer - but then, I haven't had any prints made yet.


This was done in DPP since I still haven't figured out how to set the crop size (600x600pixels) in LR.

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What lens is this?
Have you tried micro adjusting? Even if I downsize the 7D shot, it's still less sharp: