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Thread started 21 Jun 2011 (Tuesday) 14:59
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Plenoptic camera?

 
katodog
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Jun 23, 2011 08:19 as a reply to  @ post 12640070 |  #61

Not impressed. Programs like Focus Magic do the same thing, and when you create sharpening or focus with software you will not get the same detail and clarity as you would by getting the focus right in-camera.


This is basically a camera with built-in Focus Magic-type software, and the resulting images will never be as good as proper focus.


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gjl711
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Jun 23, 2011 08:26 as a reply to  @ post 12637956 |  #62

BTW, for those that enjoy all the gory details, this paper pretty much lays it all out.
http://graphics.stanfo​rd.edu …amera/lfcamera-150dpi.pdf (external link)


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Jun 23, 2011 08:35 |  #63

gjl711 wrote in post #12644000 (external link)
That assumes that all the camera is doing is focus stacking with a single lens the way it is done today. From what I understand, that is not how this is works and I'm thinking that this would work in a SLR as well after reading up a bit (external link).

This is a plenoptic camera (external link) and it not only is capable of recording the intensity of the light but via an array of micro lenses over the sensor, the direction as well. The image is then generated via some heavy duty processing. So in essence an infinite number in interim steps are generated.

The more I'm reading, the more I wish that they had gone the license route. This could really be interesting.

Yes, if we had sensors to cope with this.

Looking at his PhD dissertation, this effectively is a variant on faceted lenses, behind the lens rather than in front of it. A bunch of pixels/sensels on the sensor is serviced by a single lens, at a appropriate distance from the sensor to focus a sharp image. The image used is the one projected by the lens.

This also means that although by heavy computing and ray tracing it is possible to "focus" at different areas in the object field projected on the sensor, resolution will be significantly lower of what a sensor normally is capable of. Effectively, a 25 sensel array behind each lens will cut down resolution by a factor 5 (square root of number of elements), and this also means that in order to get good enough resolution for large size printing, 100 MP+ sensors are required.

AFAIAC, the reason to start with consumer cameras first, is because it is possible to get an ~2MP image from a reasonably sized smaller sensor this way, good enough for web viewing and small comsumer prints, certainly not enough for high quality printing purposes.

The shots used so far in their examples, were created with a MF back AFAIK, and an experimental microlens array to replace the original one, which explains the fairly shallow DoF in the first place. With the Lytro approach, effective apertures will become approximately F/4, due to the theoretical design limits imposed by this system, which also means that with compact cameras, almost everything should be in focus already.

Interesting concept, but I think we need to wait and see how this really turns out.

BTW, with some special software it is already possible to do this type of thing in the high quality realm too. However, this requires taking several pictures at different focusing distances, hence no moving objects allowed in the time required to take all shots. Here is where the Lytro has its advantage - 1 exposure for all of those shots.

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Jun 23, 2011 08:38 |  #64

katodog wrote in post #12644067 (external link)
Not impressed. Programs like Focus Magic do the same thing, and when you create sharpening or focus with software you will not get the same detail and clarity as you would by getting the focus right in-camera.


This is basically a camera with built-in Focus Magic-type software, and the resulting images will never be as good as proper focus.

Perhaps you need to look at this a bit further. This is nothing like Focus Magic. Did you even go to their gallery and test out their photos? I know techno babble is lost on many people though, so I guess I could see where you draw your quick conclusion. ;)

One image "raw file" + their intrepretation software (like raw + dpp) + user selectable point in image = any focus point you want on that image = multiple compositions from one shot

I would love to know how big the files are after capturing the light field data instead of just a normal flattened exposed image we get today.


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gjl711
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Jun 23, 2011 08:39 |  #65

wimg wrote in post #12644132 (external link)
...
Interesting concept, but I think we need to wait and see how this really turns out....

Yup, this says it all. The more I'm reading, the more excited I'm getting but there are so many potential issues with this technology that we will have to wait ans see what develops.


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Mike
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Jun 23, 2011 08:47 as a reply to  @ gjl711's post |  #66

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #12642714 (external link)
Anyone care to try and explain how this works if you're shooting sports at say, 1/4000 @ f/2.8?

There was another example linked which showed a mother behind a baby and while you could float the plane of focus to a significant degree, you could not get the mother's face as sharp as the baby's face at all.

I can't see this working without max depth of field and therefore, slow-ish shutter speeds.

My thoughts exactly.


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Jun 23, 2011 08:47 as a reply to  @ post 12640070 |  #67

This is not "software focus", it actually does some wonky stuff w/ the image plane and the sensor and captures "RAW focus data" so to speak. I've had the idea rattling around in my head since about a week after I bought the 50 f/1.8 (over 2 years ago) but don't have the brains to make it work or do anything with the idea.

Download the video from this site:

http://graphics.stanfo​rd.edu/papers/lfcamera​/ (external link)


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Jun 23, 2011 08:56 as a reply to  @ post 12639163 |  #68

My technological ability aside, I'm still not impressed. With what they have shown on their site I'm still not convinced they can recreate an image to the same level as what you would get with proper focus technique.


Kudos to the guy who thought up this next level of humans being ignorant and lazy, I'll stick with good old-fashioned effort and skill.


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Jun 23, 2011 08:58 as a reply to  @ post 12639163 |  #69

I know what you're saying, but "low resolution" applications like video would be most greatly benefited from this, I think. I like the example of focusing through a water-drop from a single shot (the video I linked to shows this) - could be very cool for things where you can't have multiple cameras or can't re-create multiple times but still want to get controllable or interactive depth.

But yes, I too would be angry if some little bastard with a PnS could get the same shot as my 85 f/1.4 on my 5D II :)


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gjl711
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Jun 23, 2011 09:00 |  #70

For those interested in more details, here is the white paper.
http://graphics.stanfo​rd.edu …amera/lfcamera-150dpi.pdf (external link)

tvphotog wrote in post #12640671 (external link)
Expensive, but will be used in P&S cameras at first.

The first camera was a Contex mid-format body but I agree, the first commercial application will have to be where the bulk of the photographers are.


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Jun 23, 2011 09:01 |  #71

katodog wrote in post #12644212 (external link)
My technological ability aside, I'm still not impressed. With what they have shown on their site I'm still not convinced they can recreate an image to the same level as what you would get with proper focus technique.


Kudos to the guy who thought up this next level of humans being ignorant and lazy, I'll stick with good old-fashioned effort and skill.

What one person considers as a fix for one "level of ignorance and laziness" is what another considers "efficiency and proficiency". ;)


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Jun 23, 2011 09:08 |  #72

Erik_L wrote in post #12644226 (external link)
But yes, I too would be angry if some little bastard with a PnS could get the same shot as my 85 f/1.4 on my 5D II :)

Haha x2


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Jun 23, 2011 09:18 as a reply to  @ post 12639163 |  #73

It's not using any kind of software tricks to create blur/sharpen. They have a new sensor and lens design that captures not only color/intensity, but also the VECTOR DIRECTION of the light. Check it out here: http://www.lytro.com/s​cience_inside (external link). It does say that they are using software to do some of the picture creation, but it is more than just a simple blur and sharpen trick.

I think it actually opens a lot of doors artistically. It basically allows you to change your DOF and focus point on the fly.

Now, what other drawbacks there might be (low light performance, distortion due to the crazy lens design, can it zoom, sensor density, etc) we don't know yet. I think it has amazing potential, but it might not be perfect.


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Jun 23, 2011 09:19 |  #74

Bheims wrote in post #12644272 (external link)
Haha x2

Actually the P&S will get multiple shots from one, so if you miss the shot just slightly with the 85L, the P&S raw image user will be able to go back later and readjust the focal plane. :lol:


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Jun 23, 2011 09:19 |  #75

Keyan wrote in post #12644317 (external link)
It's not using any kind of software tricks to create blur/sharpen. They have a new sensor and lens design that captures not only color/intensity, but also the VECTOR DIRECTION of the light. Check it out here: http://www.lytro.com/s​cience_inside (external link)

I think it actually opens a lot of doors artistically. It basically allows you to change your DOF and focus point on the fly.

Now, what other drawbacks there might be (low light performance, distortion due to the crazy lens design, can it zoom, sensor density, etc) we don't know yet. I think it has amazing potential, but it might not be perfect.

One step closer to the holodeck...


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