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Thread started 29 Jun 2011 (Wednesday) 23:04
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Californians, Say Good Bye to Amazon, B&H, Adorama,...

 
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stateman
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Jun 30, 2011 21:07 |  #76

digirebelva wrote in post #12685950 (external link)
How much clearer than "They need to have a physical presence in the state to collect tax in that state" does it need to be...this whole redefining what constitutes a physical presence is BS...maybe they are just trying to get congress to act, or they are/were hoping that amazon would simply capitulate and go along with it.

"California's new law was drafted to circumvent a 1992 U.S. Supreme Court (external link) ruling that sellers can't be forced to collect sales taxes unless they have a physical presence in the state."

If Calif would get its entitlement spending under control...this probably would not have come up.

Putting aside the entitlement/spending issue for a moment, the 1992 decision (and the 1967 one that it reaffirmed) were from a different time in american economy and law. While reasonable minds do disagree, many people believe that the court's 1992 reliance upon prior law may no longer be appropriate given the drastic changes from a production/tangible property US economy to one that relies so much more upon services, intangibles, non vertically integrated supply chains, and massive cross border transactions. Back then, this was only an issue for the mail order business. There was no internet, little in the way of direct retail to consumers that was easily cross state borders, and little in the way of technology that would facilitate the ability of sellers to comply with the sales tax laws of > 7,000 jurisdictions (states, counties, cities etc).

Whatever congress does decide - it does need to decide. To say there isn't a real discrepancy between online vs B&M retail is false. Good tax and economy policy shouldn't be about picking winners and losers between otherwise similarly situated businesses. Under Article II of the Constitution, it's their job to clearly provide the rules of the game - when can states tax this type of commerce. Perhaps their inaction can be seen as tacit reaffirmation of the 1992 ruling. That's one way of looking at it.



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Mike55
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Jul 01, 2011 00:49 |  #77

This happened in Illinois. The affiliates got wiped out.


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n0w0rries
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Jul 01, 2011 10:52 |  #78

I hope the state pays use tax on the 7.2B bridge they bought from China.

We all know the government needs tax money to run things. The problem is the unchecked abuse of the system. Remember that whole debacle how the firefighters watched some guy drown himself because they were told to not enter the water because they weren't trained for it. Meanwhile the fire chief makes $350,000 a year, and then orders training for 16 fire fighters that cost $40k. Does it really cost $40,000 to teach somebody how to get in the water and save somebody? Honestly?


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dog ­ rocket
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Jul 01, 2011 10:54 |  #79

There's no way this thread cannot be political. I had a thread locked a few months back when I spoke about the USE tax form from CA that came in the mail. Look, for the proponents of the government's actions: I don't think anyone here has a problem with taxation in general. What irks people is the gross mismanagement of funds and the government now looking hard and coming down hard in places they hadn't before. They are looking under every rock and every turnip to squeeze. If you have a photography business, or any business, be prepared to be audited on a regular basis now. You have nothing to hide, fine. But what about all the time you need to take off work and the money you pay your CPA to join you for a day at the IRS? With tough times like this, these are the reasons people have a bad attitude about this type of thing. It's not THIS thing specifically, it's just another cog in the new money wheels coming from the top. And it's hard enough right now for small businesses to stay alive much less getting run over by all these new wheels at the same time. If you're sound enough financially to not give a poop, good for you. But tomorrow that could all change.


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dog ­ rocket
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Jul 01, 2011 11:00 |  #80

mobei wrote in post #12685249 (external link)
This is BS any business does the same thing. Software does all the work in a second. On line just needs to send the multiple checks to different states.

Is that so? Ever run a retail business? Someone has to pay to set that system up. That's my point. (reiterated in case you didn't bother to read the post just 2 up from yours)


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isoMorphic
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Jul 01, 2011 11:04 |  #81

Whatever you think this online sales tax debate is about -- it is not about Main Street, and it is not about tax fairness.

http://www.huffingtonp​ost.com …t-sales-tax_b_846986.html (external link)




  
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dog ­ rocket
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Jul 01, 2011 11:06 |  #82

Hey, has anyone from CA tried to order anything online at the aforementioned retailers today? ??


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gonzogolf
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Jul 01, 2011 11:11 |  #83

dog rocket wrote in post #12688475 (external link)
Is that so? Ever run a retail business? Someone has to pay to set that system up. That's my point. (reiterated in case you didn't bother to read the post just 2 up from yours)

Sure you have to pay someone to set it up, although you probably had to pay someone to set up your online ordering system in the first place. Shocking fact, businesses have expenses. But the supreme court decision that created this mess found that it was burdensome for businesses to collect sales taxes for 50 individual states including having an accountant calculate the tax for each, cut a check and mail it to each state. Its not the same environment now with software based accounting that can automatically calculate, collect, and hold for periodic wire transfers to the appropriate state. I'm not arguing that its cost free, but its going to be part of the cost of doing business to access 300 million U.S. consumers.




  
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Bokehlicious
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Jul 01, 2011 11:27 |  #84

dog rocket wrote in post #12688505 (external link)
Hey, has anyone from CA tried to order anything online at the aforementioned retailers today? ??

No tax from Amazon...




  
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digirebelva
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Jul 01, 2011 12:07 |  #85

stateman wrote in post #12686003 (external link)
Putting aside the entitlement/spending issue for a moment, the 1992 decision (and the 1967 one that it reaffirmed) were from a different time in american economy and law. While reasonable minds do disagree, many people believe that the court's 1992 reliance upon prior law may no longer be appropriate given the drastic changes from a production/tangible property US economy to one that relies so much more upon services, intangibles, non vertically integrated supply chains, and massive cross border transactions. Back then, this was only an issue for the mail order business. There was no internet, little in the way of direct retail to consumers that was easily cross state borders, and little in the way of technology that would facilitate the ability of sellers to comply with the sales tax laws of > 7,000 jurisdictions (states, counties, cities etc).

Whatever congress does decide - it does need to decide. To say there isn't a real discrepancy between online vs B&M retail is false. Good tax and economy policy shouldn't be about picking winners and losers between otherwise similarly situated businesses. Under Article II of the Constitution, it's their job to clearly provide the rules of the game - when can states tax this type of commerce. Perhaps their inaction can be seen as tacit reaffirmation of the 1992 ruling. That's one way of looking at it.

trust me, I hear you & understand your point...I guess what I am looking at is starving the govt (not just CA) of more money that can't seem to get its priorities in order. There comes a point when you can no longer kick the can down the road and have to make the hard choices that you were elected to make, not the popular choices that you think will keep you in office. Nobody really likes taxes, but most of us understand they are a necessary evil..


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drumnut01
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Jul 01, 2011 12:20 |  #86

n0w0rries wrote in post #12688427 (external link)
I hope the state pays use tax on the 7.2B bridge they bought from China.

We all know the government needs tax money to run things. The problem is the unchecked abuse of the system. Remember that whole debacle how the firefighters watched some guy drown himself because they were told to not enter the water because they weren't trained for it. Meanwhile the fire chief makes $350,000 a year, and then orders training for 16 fire fighters that cost $40k. Does it really cost $40,000 to teach somebody how to get in the water and save somebody? Honestly?

$40,000 / 16 firefighters = $2,500 each. That seems reasonable since those firefighters will have to take time away from work to go to the training and their salaries during that time, as well as any overtime that it generates will be included in that total. One week salary alone would be over $1,000, not including overtime to cover their shift. I would think that a class like that would be at least a two-week class.


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Poe
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Jul 01, 2011 12:28 |  #87

All the law does is declare that by having affiliates in CA, you have a presence in CA and must collect and remit sales tax to the FTB/Treasury. Since Amazon discontinued their affiliate program, it means that Amazon does not have to collect or remit sales tax. Amazon is unaffected, but the affiliates and the tax money that came from the commissions under the program has been affected, due to these tax law changes.

I'm astounded by the amount of misinformation being passed around here on this thread.



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dog ­ rocket
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Jul 01, 2011 12:34 |  #88

gonzogolf wrote in post #12688524 (external link)
Sure you have to pay someone to set it up, although you probably had to pay someone to set up your online ordering system in the first place. Shocking fact, businesses have expenses. But the supreme court decision that created this mess found that it was burdensome for businesses to collect sales taxes for 50 individual states including having an accountant calculate the tax for each, cut a check and mail it to each state. Its not the same environment now with software based accounting that can automatically calculate, collect, and hold for periodic wire transfers to the appropriate state. I'm not arguing that its cost free, but its going to be part of the cost of doing business to access 300 million U.S. consumers.

OK, so now you are agreeing with me. It has a cost and it is burdensome. That was my point. And apparently, at some point the supreme court agreed with me that that burden should not fall on the retailer. I'm not specifically speaking up in defense of the large retail guys like Amazon, et al. I am a proponent of small business and the ones this will most affect are the online small businesses, wrt to administration and costs. Whether it helps local small businesses is up for debate. It will likely help WallyMart and other huge local retailers more. Funny how WalMart is the shadow whispering "help your brick & morter, help your brick & morter with this legislation". This could possibly have a worse affect for small business as a whole, not better...


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stillinamerica
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Jul 01, 2011 12:37 |  #89

It is your responsibility to pay the sales tax on the purchases from amazon etc, especially if you are a business. I am in Alabama, I have to pay 4% Alabama sale tax on the out of state items purchased. Glad it is not the 10% in state though.


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Jul 01, 2011 12:38 |  #90

Is there a list of companies that are specifically affected other than B&H, amazon, etc.... Interesting thread so far.


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