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Thread started 12 Jul 2011 (Tuesday) 21:13
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FF vs. crop focus accuracy

 
manttium
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Jul 12, 2011 21:13 |  #1

I remember reading a thread a while back where someone mentioned that focusing accuracy was slightly better on Canon FF bodies (e.g. 5DII) compared to their crop counterparts, specifically at very wide apertures (e.g. f/1.4). It was something to do with extra correction for chromatic aberrations that wasn't being done on the crop bodies.

I've looked, but I can't seem to find the thread now...anyone remember this? Also, if there are any more technical documents regarding this issue, I'd be all ears (or rather, in this case, eyes). Thanks!


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Viva-photography
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Jul 12, 2011 21:35 |  #2

^ what he said




  
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Jul 12, 2011 21:38 |  #3

manttium wrote in post #12748647 (external link)
I remember reading a thread a while back where someone mentioned that focusing accuracy was slightly better on Canon FF bodies (e.g. 5DII) compared to their crop counterparts, specifically at very wide apertures (e.g. f/1.4). It was something to do with extra correction for chromatic aberrations that wasn't being done on the crop bodies.

I've looked, but I can't seem to find the thread now...anyone remember this? Also, if there are any more technical documents regarding this issue, I'd be all ears (or rather, in this case, eyes). Thanks!

I'm 100% sure they were talking about MF.
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Jul 12, 2011 21:51 as a reply to  @ kf095's post |  #4

I could be wrong, but I don't think sensor size has anything to do with focus accuracy. The sensor does not come into play when focusing through the viewfinder. Live view I'm not sure, but I don't think so.


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The ­ Ran
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Jul 13, 2011 06:26 |  #5

Sounds like a load of rubbish to me. Any advantage there may be is likely down to the FF bodies being higher end compared to the majority of the croppers are entry to mid level. Probably the only two cameras comparable in the Canon line up are the 20/30D and 5D Classic as they use the same AF system (and perhaps the 40/50D and 5DII as well), the 1Ds bodies have no crop equivalent in terms of AF system (assuming we're talking about 1.6x crop here).


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Jul 13, 2011 07:42 |  #6

manttium wrote in post #12748647 (external link)
I remember reading a thread a while back where someone mentioned that focusing accuracy was slightly better on Canon FF bodies (e.g. 5DII) compared to their crop counterparts, specifically at very wide apertures (e.g. f/1.4). It was something to do with extra correction for chromatic aberrations that wasn't being done on the crop bodies.

I've looked, but I can't seem to find the thread now...anyone remember this? Also, if there are any more technical documents regarding this issue, I'd be all ears (or rather, in this case, eyes). Thanks!

This hasn't been my experience. My 5d2 has a tendency to be off a little more than my 7d. Sensor really has no impact other than depth of field with large aperture lenses. The 7d af system is vastly superior to the 5d2.


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gjl711
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Jul 13, 2011 07:47 |  #7

As I have both the 5DII and a 7D, I can say with confidence that the 7D AF system is by far better than the MkII. It is faster, more accurate, and tracks better.

Now comparing a 5DMkII to a rebel, the 5D may be more accurate because it has additional helper focus points, (4 I believe) that help when tracking. Also, the 5D VF is not that large. It's just a tad bigger than the 7D and no where near as big as my Canon A1.


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E-K
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Jul 13, 2011 08:39 |  #8

The Ran wrote in post #12750390 (external link)
Probably the only two cameras comparable in the Canon line up are the 20/30D and 5D Classic as they use the same AF system (and perhaps the 40/50D and 5DII as well), the 1Ds bodies have no crop equivalent in terms of AF system (assuming we're talking about 1.6x crop here).

I believe the 5D and 5D Mark II share the same auto focus system (9 points with 6 hidden points) and don't share the autofocus system with any of the x0D series.

e-k




  
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Jul 13, 2011 08:43 |  #9

gjl711 wrote in post #12750569 (external link)
As I have both the 5DII and a 7D, I can say with confidence that the 7D AF system is by far better than the MkII. It is faster, more accurate, and tracks better.

Now comparing a 5DMkII to a rebel, the 5D may be more accurate because it has additional helper focus points, (4 I believe) that help when tracking. Also, the 5D VF is not that large. It's just a tad bigger than the 7D and no where near as big as my Canon A1.

Yep, what he said. +1




  
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The ­ Ran
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Jul 13, 2011 09:34 |  #10

E-K wrote in post #12750802 (external link)
I believe the 5D and 5D Mark II share the same auto focus system (9 points with 6 hidden points) and don't share the autofocus system with any of the x0D series.

e-k

Indeed you are correct, just checked on DPReview and the 5D does have the hidden points which my 20D doesn't. I wonder if the 40/50D have the hidden points too, DPReview doesn't mention them at all but I don't see why they'd leave them out of a newer body. Other than that the 20/30D and 5D should be comparable in terms of accuracy, with the centre point becoming a high sensitivity cross type at f/2.8 and faster.


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gjl711
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Jul 13, 2011 09:37 |  #11

The Ran wrote in post #12751094 (external link)
..I wonder if the 40/50D have the hidden points too, DPReview doesn't mention them at all but I don't see why they'd leave them out of a newer body. ...

They are not mentioned in the white paper either. I believe only the 5D and 5DmkII have the hidden points.


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Jul 13, 2011 11:24 |  #12

One thing to note, is that a crop body will enlarge focusing errors in the final viewing format, be it on print or on screen. So even two identical shots taken on a crop and FF, and let's say both have missed focus by 2 inches, it will be more visible on the crop photo because it is magnified to a larger degree than the FF photo. It's not a huge difference, but it's there.


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manttium
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Jul 13, 2011 11:48 |  #13

I think I found the thread to which I was referring:

https://photography-on-the.net …hread.php?t=959​317&page=2

Specifically, the issue is regarding focus accuracy in different lighting conditions. In it, apersson850 says:

The focus sensors are sensitive to chromatic abberation in the lenses, and the effect of that varies with the color of the light. So it's not the sensor itself, it's the light that comes to it. If you know the temperature of the light, you can compensate for this, by softwarewise "move" the image that hits the AF sensor.

The 50D and 5D Mark II uses the computing power of the Digic 4 to analyze the light hitting the AF sensor, and then compensate for this, if it seems to be flickering like fluorescent light does.
The 1D Mark IV uses a separate sensor up in the pentaprism to get the color of the light.
The 7D supposedly uses the iFCL metering sensor (Canon says in their technical information) to achieve the same thing, but I have my doubts about how effective that is.

According to the Canon 5DII/50D whitepaper, both cameras are supposed to be able to compensate for different lighting conditions by some form of time-averaging. But it sounds like the 7D (and other recent releases, such as the 60D) uses the iFCL metering system to compensate for different light sources in AF, which sounds to be less accurate. So it's not a FF vs. crop issue (if it even is an issue), but rather a different technology issue.


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amfoto1
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Jul 13, 2011 13:03 |  #14

I'm using 5DII alongside a pair of 7Ds and previously used it along with several 50Ds.

No, I don't think FF AF is any more or less accurate than crop. At least if there is any difference in their accuracy, it's not enough that you'd ever be able to detect it. Maybe you could measure some difference with some kind of scientific tests... I dunno. But I don't think it's enough that you'd ever be able to definitively detect it by eye and point to it.

I suspect more likely that any differences are more related to the user. Besides the greater magnifications you tend to use when viewing crop camera files that Lloyd mentions above, when using the same lens on both formats, assuming you are framing your subject the same way, you will be standing considerably closer with the FF camera. That makes your effective depth of field shallower and more visible in the larger viewfinder, so you can better evaluate focus accuracy and make fine adjustments or refocus before taking the shot. Also, most folks use a FF camera for more sedate types of shooting (landscapes, cityscapes, portraits vs sports/action), which are a lot less challenging to focus accurately. Because of this difference in subjects, we're also more like to use One Shot with the FF camera, AI Servo with the cropper. One Shot tends to be more accurate than AI Servo.

And, no, the focus systems of 30D/5D Classic and 50D/5DII are not the same. They appear similar because you see 9 points in the viewfinder, and the center AF point on all of them perform pretty similarly. But the 5D series have 6 additional "hidden" expansion points right around the center point (can be enabled or disabled, only work in AI Servo though) for an actual total of 15 AF points. The 30/40/50D do not have those expansion points at all.

Also, the 30D and both 5D models have only one cross type AF point, at the center. 40D, 50D, 60D and 7D have all 9 points cross type, though the center one is still more sensitive. 5D outer point performance drops off pretty dramatically, probably because it shares rather heavy image file data handling through the same processor that's performing AF functions. The 7D has dual processors for image data handling, plus a dedicated processor for AF (similar to 1D series cameras). The 30/40/50D all also share duties through a single processor, but files sizes are smaller than with the FF camera (Note: 50D's files are larger than the 5D Classic's, but it's processor is two generations newer, too).

I don't know that I'd call 7D AF "better".... It's purpose and design is different from 5DII's AF. One camera and it's AF system are designed for action, the other for more sedate types of shooting. Certainly the 7D locks on faster (but interestingly the tests comparing it with 50D showed the older cameras slightly faster locking on... mere milliseconds difference though, not enough you'd ever notice in use). And the 7D handles AI Servo tracking of moving subjects better, as might be expected with a more action oriented camera. I don't think the 7D is any more or less accurate, though. And the 5D models will keep focusing in about a stop's worth lower light, albeit pretty slowly, after all the croppers' AF systems have given up completely.

Finally, 7D, 50D and 5DII have Micro Focus Adjust feature (does 40D also have it?). Used right that can improve focus accuracy quite a bit.


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jase1125
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Jul 13, 2011 17:45 |  #15

The 7D af system is better IMO. It ca work in one shot af just as well as a 5d2 in low light situations as well as additional functions like spot for increased accuracy.

amfoto1 wrote in post #12752098 (external link)
I'm using 5DII alongside a pair of 7Ds and previously used it along with several 50Ds.

No, I don't think FF AF is any more or less accurate than crop. At least if there is any difference in their accuracy, it's not enough that you'd ever be able to detect it. Maybe you could measure some difference with some kind of scientific tests... I dunno. But I don't think it's enough that you'd ever be able to definitively detect it by eye and point to it.

I suspect more likely that any differences are more related to the user. Besides the greater magnifications you tend to use when viewing crop camera files that Lloyd mentions above, when using the same lens on both formats, assuming you are framing your subject the same way, you will be standing considerably closer with the FF camera. That makes your effective depth of field shallower and more visible in the larger viewfinder, so you can better evaluate focus accuracy and make fine adjustments or refocus before taking the shot. Also, most folks use a FF camera for more sedate types of shooting (landscapes, cityscapes, portraits vs sports/action), which are a lot less challenging to focus accurately. Because of this difference in subjects, we're also more like to use One Shot with the FF camera, AI Servo with the cropper. One Shot tends to be more accurate than AI Servo.

And, no, the focus systems of 30D/5D Classic and 50D/5DII are not the same. They appear similar because you see 9 points in the viewfinder, and the center AF point on all of them perform pretty similarly. But the 5D series have 6 additional "hidden" expansion points right around the center point (can be enabled or disabled, only work in AI Servo though) for an actual total of 15 AF points. The 30/40/50D do not have those expansion points at all.

Also, the 30D and both 5D models have only one cross type AF point, at the center. 40D, 50D, 60D and 7D have all 9 points cross type, though the center one is still more sensitive. 5D outer point performance drops off pretty dramatically, probably because it shares rather heavy image file data handling through the same processor that's performing AF functions. The 7D has dual processors for image data handling, plus a dedicated processor for AF (similar to 1D series cameras). The 30/40/50D all also share duties through a single processor, but files sizes are smaller than with the FF camera (Note: 50D's files are larger than the 5D Classic's, but it's processor is two generations newer, too).

I don't know that I'd call 7D AF "better".... It's purpose and design is different from 5DII's AF. One camera and it's AF system are designed for action, the other for more sedate types of shooting. Certainly the 7D locks on faster (but interestingly the tests comparing it with 50D showed the older cameras slightly faster locking on... mere milliseconds difference though, not enough you'd ever notice in use). And the 7D handles AI Servo tracking of moving subjects better, as might be expected with a more action oriented camera. I don't think the 7D is any more or less accurate, though. And the 5D models will keep focusing in about a stop's worth lower light, albeit pretty slowly, after all the croppers' AF systems have given up completely.

Finally, 7D, 50D and 5DII have Micro Focus Adjust feature (does 40D also have it?). Used right that can improve focus accuracy quite a bit.


Jason

  
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