Need Help With This Shot--Lighting & Posing

Hey, Guys;
This shot is from a recent wedding; as you can see it did not turn out so great, not only becuase I couldn't get the lighting right but the posing sucked:o . Now I have another bride wanting the same shot in the same venue so I need help especially with getting the lighting better. I just could not get the girls in front lit well & at the same time have the girls further back evenly lit. Should we try a camera up the stairs or what? I think I got so frustrated trying to get better lighting I just kind of gave up on posing them better. So let me hear how you guys would light this & also any suggestions on posing are welcome!

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How was this lit? OCF? If so, how was it set up?

I don't think a shot like this needs to be too fancy other than making sure they are lined up nice and symmetrically. I would watch cut-off limbs. The girl on the left side bottom, her hands are chopped off.

Oops! I had written this post out with my light set up but then hit a wrong button & erased it & forgot to put it back in.

I had a bare 580EXII on a stand camera left & maybe used my on camera 580EXII for fill, I honestly can't remember for sure on that on camera part, I tried so many different things.

Yeah, thanks for the limb reminder! I need to quit letting frustration cause me to lose focus.

nicksan wrote in post #12836840
How was this lit? OCF? If so, how was it set up?

I don't think a shot like this needs to be too fancy other than making sure they are lined up nice and symmetrically. I would watch cut-off limbs. The girl on the left side bottom, her hands are chopped off.

I always have a small umbrella in my gear for situations just like this. I would have had the umbrella directly behind me and higher using my on camera flash as fill. Umbrella at like f/5.6 and on camera at f/4.0 (both depending on the distance from the subject.)
As far as posing, my tendency is to make the bride the center of attraction. Either in the middle and have the bridesmaids surround her in a teardrop fashion (be careful not to hide any faces)or have her at the top and have the little one fill the void at the bottom. The most important thing is "expressions" I think they need to be more animated, look like they are having fun. This looks like they heard "OK, nice smiles"

images by Paul wrote in post #12837306
I always have a small umbrella in my gear for situations just like this. I would have had the umbrella directly behind me and higher using my on camera flash as fill. Umbrella at like f/5.6 and on camera at f/4.0 (both depending on the distance from the subject.)
As far as posing, my tendency is to make the bride the center of attraction. Either in the middle and have the bridesmaids surround her in a teardrop fashion (be careful not to hide any faces)or have her at the top and have the little one fill the void at the bottom. The most important thing is "expressions" I think they need to be more animated, look like they are having fun. This looks like they heard "OK, nice smiles"

Thanks for this reply! I'm going to fess up, I adjust my flashes by the power ( 1/4, 1/8, etc) not by the f-stop; I don't really understand how that works. Now that I think about it, I think I did have a shoot through umbrella on the OCF. I'm just not happy with the ambient/flash balance nor the light on the girls.

Thanks also for the posing tip. And, yeah, I could not get these girl to loosen up! It's funny, the bride was so animated & bubbly when we interviewed, but I guess her nerves got the better of her & she kind of tightened up & I think it rubbed off on the girls some (not to mention, it's possible my frustration may have been sensed!).

I'm definitely no expert on this, but it does look like your flash overpowered the ambient too much. If you reduced your shutter speed, you could have increased your ambient lighting without affecting your flash exposure.

The flash settings (f-stop vs power) is kind of important, but not 100% necessary. It's more important if you are using multiple strobes with different power output. Just take a couple of shots without the flash to see what your camera settings need to be to get decent, but not too bright, ambient - maybe ~1 stop below proper exposure. Then adjust your flash so that is brightens the subjects up enough for proper exposure. That should be easily done indoors. Outdoors can be more difficult depending on the lighting, shadows, etc.

I hope this helps. Typing it out has actually helped me some.

Thanks!

Obviously without first hand knowledge of the venue I'm guessing but these things occur to me. The first is you would have a stronger shot if you were standing a bit higher, like on a chair perhaps so that you arent looking up at the subjects so much. The second as mentioned above is work on better ambient to flash balance, and finally if you have the option a flash could have been placed above them on the stairs or on a landing out of camera view you could have had more even light on the whole group. That last is dependent on the stairs going where I think they do.

I think you need a larger light farther away so the fall off is more even on everyone's face. That will help the unevenness of the OCF.

I know how you're feeling, Michelle. I hope this helps. I took this photo for a local choir. I had one sb-600 in a shoot through umbrella on either side and I was up on a step ladder with another flash on my camera. With your situation I would try to get at least one flash up high, probably camera left, as it seems there's room there and then have another above your camera (either hand held or on a bracket. Hope that helps.

Posing is probably one of the most complicated struggles I have because time limitation is hard on nerves. IMO I would have the bride in center because she is the key subject and have the other attractive woman in a V formation and then after that do random positions. This is where we must pull the creative side out of our heads and start positioning people. That is easier said than done.

For the situation your in you can do either safe with a main(key) light and just get even fill OR you can spend more time getting creative with hair light and add more dimension. It all depends if you have an assistant or your real fast with setup and time constraints.

I think an essential shoot through umbrella is a photoflex shoot through (combo with black cover too) that is 5 feet. This just above your head behind you will be a great light bomb you will be able to get more even light and hopefully bounce on walls/ceiling. If its dark in there just go manual camera settings and drag the shutter so you let more ambient in/also increase the iso higher to increase light sensitivity. Then you can feather fill light using ETTL. OR adjust in manual flash settings to get more consistant exposure in consecutive photos.

I'll admit talk is cheap. Executing the shot with no major guessing takes experience. I'm getting the hang of things but there is soooooooo much talent that I respect on the POTN. I will have to say indoors I love using my PW flex units and AC3. I can set all the speedlights on the fly settings adjusting silly fast to your taste. Manual flash modes is safe too because you will have consistent ambient light indoors and more than likely you wont need faster shutter speeds beyond the flash sync speed.

I had to do an extremely large family photo in a nasty lit chinese restaurant. 50+ people and I used my 5 foot photoflex octabox and einstien for fill. The light was extremely even and well lit. But I had very little time allocated to do such a photo. I played it safe because I had no alternative. You must sometimes land the shot the best you can and just fill evenly.

WE have the luxury of disecting your photo but its easier to disect than to do the shot in that "moment". I bet you have other amazing photos. Its good your analysing photos your very critical of. Nothing but UP.....meanings your just gonna get better and better!

A cool shot maybe put a flash behind the bride (positioned in center) and a V formation of the bridal party. you'll add a nice rim/hairlight behind the bride and hit the group with fill. Thats shouldn't take too much time to setup.

Using a slower shutter and/or higher ISO would give you more ambient and that would improve this shot.

If you are using a light off camera for a group like this - a little awareness of the inverse square law will help. Without getting geeky, all you need to know is that there is a very sharp falloff of light closest to your light source, and the farther you are from the light source, the more gradual the light falloff is. So in a situation where there is depth in your group, you want your light FARTHER away. That will light your group more evenly. Check out the OneLight DVD by Zack Arias for very easy to understand explanations of this and other key lighting concepts.

As far as posing, the first time I pose the bridesmaids I tell them to remember three things -
1) always be at an angle to the camera - shoulders should never be at the same distance to the camera. around a 45 degree angle is good
2) shift weight so it is on one leg, slightly bend the leg without the weight on it
3) bend arm at the elbow

I think I read somewhere "if it bends, bend it."

Having their bouquets often makes them feel more relaxed and makes their arms feel less awkward.

Also, just remember that while we obsess over stuff like this - and I do think there is room for improvement here - the clients will most likely love this and never notice any of what we're pointing out.

Alright my 2 cents

I would put the bride in the center and the line up the bridesmaids in a v formation.
I have always used a reflective umbrella if I am using flash set high over my head with an angle ofcourse.
Depending on how many brides maid you have or how many steps you are using you might want to get up on a chair.
I always prefer to use high iso and not use flash at all.

PhotogWannabe wrote in post #12844093
I know how you're feeling, Michelle. I hope this helps. I took this photo for a local choir. I had one sb-600 in a shoot through umbrella on either side and I was up on a step ladder with another flash on my camera. With your situation I would try to get at least one flash up high, probably camera left, as it seems there's room there and then have another above your camera (either hand held or on a bracket. Hope that helps.

That's a great job with such a large group! Yes, I def see the advantage to getting up on something, and since I am short, that would've helped me in my situation. I see others have mentioned that so I will def implement it in the upcoming wedding! Thanks!

Thank you guys for all this great advice. (If I didn't multi-quote you here, I still appreciate your post!) Lots of things for me to try at this up-coming wedding to improve.

I just got a 50" Westcott Apollo softbox, I was thinking of using it instead of the shoot through umbrella-- think this would improve things?

AlanU wrote in post #12844414
Posing is probably one of the most complicated struggles I have because time limitation is hard on nerves. IMO I would have the bride in center because she is the key subject and have the other attractive woman in a V formation and then after that do random positions. This is where we must pull the creative side out of our heads and start positioning people. That is easier said than done.

For the situation your in you can do either safe with a main(key) light and just get even fill OR you can spend more time getting creative with hair light and add more dimension. It all depends if you have an assistant or your real fast with setup and time constraints.

I think an essential shoot through umbrella is a photoflex shoot through (combo with black cover too) that is 5 feet. This just above your head behind you will be a great light bomb you will be able to get more even light and hopefully bounce on walls/ceiling. If its dark in there just go manual camera settings and drag the shutter so you let more ambient in/also increase the iso higher to increase light sensitivity. Then you can feather fill light using ETTL. OR adjust in manual flash settings to get more consistant exposure in consecutive photos.

I'll admit talk is cheap. Executing the shot with no major guessing takes experience. I'm getting the hang of things but there is soooooooo much talent that I respect on the POTN. I will have to say indoors I love using my PW flex units and AC3. I can set all the speedlights on the fly settings adjusting silly fast to your taste. Manual flash modes is safe too because you will have consistent ambient light indoors and more than likely you wont need faster shutter speeds beyond the flash sync speed.

I had to do an extremely large family photo in a nasty lit chinese restaurant. 50+ people and I used my 5 foot photoflex octabox and einstien for fill. The light was extremely even and well lit. But I had very little time allocated to do such a photo. I played it safe because I had no alternative. You must sometimes land the shot the best you can and just fill evenly.

WE have the luxury of disecting your photo but its easier to disect than to do the shot in that "moment". I bet you have other amazing photos. Its good your analysing photos your very critical of. Nothing but UP.....meanings your just gonna get better and better!

A cool shot maybe put a flash behind the bride (positioned in center) and a V formation of the bridal party. you'll add a nice rim/hairlight behind the bride and hit the group with fill. Thats shouldn't take too much time to setup.

Christina wrote in post #12844443
Using a slower shutter and/or higher ISO would give you more ambient and that would improve this shot.

If you are using a light off camera for a group like this - a little awareness of the inverse square law will help. Without getting geeky, all you need to know is that there is a very sharp falloff of light closest to your light source, and the farther you are from the light source, the more gradual the light falloff is. So in a situation where there is depth in your group, you want your light FARTHER away. That will light your group more evenly. Check out the OneLight DVD by Zack Arias for very easy to understand explanations of this and other key lighting concepts.

As far as posing, the first time I pose the bridesmaids I tell them to remember three things -
1) always be at an angle to the camera - shoulders should never be at the same distance to the camera. around a 45 degree angle is good
2) shift weight so it is on one leg, slightly bend the leg without the weight on it
3) bend arm at the elbow

I think I read somewhere "if it bends, bend it."

Having their bouquets often makes them feel more relaxed and makes their arms feel less awkward.

Also, just remember that while we obsess over stuff like this - and I do think there is room for improvement here - the clients will most likely love this and never notice any of what we're pointing out.

deepgan wrote in post #12847825
Alright my 2 cents

I would put the bride in the center and the line up the bridesmaids in a v formation.
I have always used a reflective umbrella if I am using flash set high over my head with an angle ofcourse.
Depending on how many brides maid you have or how many steps you are using you might want to get up on a chair.
I always prefer to use high iso and not use flash at all.