Auto vs other mods - different results?

Dear Alex,

I now have my conclusions.

First, I have been assuming that we are talking about the built-in flash unit that is integral to the G5 - we are NOT using an auxilliary, external flash!

Also, I was able to see your EXIF data in the two pictures that you posted.

In image FLASH ON.JPG the EXIF data says Fired, compulsory mode.

The EXIF data is telling me that in FLASH AUTO.JPG you have used the button in the top left hand corner of the camera and cycled the flash to be OFF. Either the EXIF data is incorrect, or you are not using the button correctly, or the camera is broken - I have no way to know unless I can see the lightning bolt in the LCD monitor when you make the shot.

It is interesting that BOTH shots show shutter speed = 1 second. When my G5 is in P mode, the ONLY WAY that I can get an exposure of f/2.0 at 1 second is if I turn the flash OFF using the button mentioned above.

Every indication is that you are setting that button to turn the flash OFF.

There is nothing else I can say.

Hi Robert,
I am using of course the Internal flash.
the picture was definately take on AUTO_FLASH.
I made the test 5-6 times before posting.
but the strange thing is that now i get the FLASH fired on AUTO,
although the scene is slightly different but the behaviour is very disturbing.
Another scene that i took now in P mode:
FLASH AUTO

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In these last two shots there is consistency with respect to the two before that.

In each sequence of shots your EXIF data is telling me that the flash is turned off in one shot and is firing in the other shot.

The one with flash firing looks overexposed, but that is not unusual for a close-up flash shot.
Now to the issue of the FLASH OFF 202 picture. The only way that camera can give you 1 sec and f/2.0 in P mode is that you have turned the flash off, and the camera is giving you the largest exposure that it can order - namely 1 second and f/2.0. Under those conditions, my camera displays the aperture and shutter speed in RED in the monitor (telling you that it CANNOT meet the exposure required). In other words the camera is telling you that you cannot shoot this scene in P mode, because in P mode it cannot give a bigger opening than f/2.0 and it CHOOSES not to give you a shutter speed slower than 1 second. That is what its rules are saying. Unless you can satisfy me that my analysis is incorrect, then I say that the camera is working properly.

You have implied in your message that you are physically turning the flash to OFF mode in the shot named FLASH OFF 202. Why would you think that the picture should come out the same as with the flash on? The camera simply cannot meet that exposure requirement unless you put it in manual and give it a longer shutter duration.

I am becoming convinced that the problem is that you have not yet accepted the realities of P mode. It does NOT automatically adjust the camera to give the correct exposure - it only TRIES to - up to a point. Once the camera tells you that it CANNOT do it, then it's up to you to go to Av or Manual mode. Generall speaking Tv mode is already a loser if P mode can't do it.

Robert, it's not about hitting the bottom 1 sec! it happens always on every speed and shutter (1/1-F2 or 1/25-F2 or 1/60-F2 this is all the tests variants that i have done). even when i get no RED reading. we have been through this already, but u asked me specifically to do it in very dark conditions. Thats why i got the red reading.

The only thing i can't understand is why I get the same exposure with flash fired and not fired.
Even a beginner knows that when he enables/disables flash he should compensate with exposure or shutter. but this camera exposure stays always the same.
And it is AUTOMATICALLY choosen, not by me!!!

I think I understand the exposure/shutter issue pretty good, to know there is a problem here.

Example,
if i shoot a picture with FLASH ON and got 1/60-F2,
then when I put FLASH OFF i would expect some (maybe slight maybe big) change in the numbers, something like 1/40-F2.

So do u want to tell me that u when u turn flash off/on u don't need to compensate???

I cannot understand what you mean in your first paragraph.

In regard to getting the same exposure both with flash fired and not fired - As I said, my G5 camera also gives me the same 1 sec shutter speed setting and the same f/2.0 aperture setting in P mode, when the flash is turned off and the scene is too dark for P mode.

So your camera is working the same as mine.

Also, in that same scene, if I turn the flash on, the camera still calls for a 1 second exposure at f/2.0, but when the flash fires it gives me a good exposure, just like it did with your camera. Again, my camera is doing the same thing as your camera when the flash is turned on and the scene is dark.

You are insisting that the camera should do something different than what it does, and I am trying to explain that the camera is doing exactly what I would expect it to do. I think that you are expecting the commanded aperture and shutter speed to change when you turn the flash on. This I have to check again when I get home, but I am pretty sure that when I wrote my previous message and was doing the same thing with my camera, that the commanded settings did not change when I turned the flash on or off. When I get home on Sunday, I can double check that. Unfortunately, I am at my daughter's house and we are going camping through Sunday.

In your last paragraph, you ask when I turn my flash off/on do I need to compensate. Well, if I want to get a good exposure, then I certainly have to do something, because under the conditions of a dark scene, if I turn the flash off, I get a dark picture and if I turn the flash on, then I get a good picture - all in P mode - just exactly like the two pictures you got.

I think we will have to continue this on Sunday, because after tomorrow at 10 am EDST I will not have access to the internet until Sunday evening.

Robert, if u think that there is nothing strange with the fact that in P Mode the exposure settings don’t change when I play with FLASH on/off, than we have nothing to discuss here.
After all on the AUTO_MODE the exposure settings DO change when I play with FLASH on/off. And I would expect the behavior to be consistent.

But if u think that’s all like it should be. Than I don’t think we should continue the thread. I don’t need to convince u, and u will not be able to convince me that it is the right behavior.
I am here for understanding, and I think I got everything I could from this thread.
Thanks a lot for the help,
I really appreciate it!
Alex.

Well, I'm really sorry that you feel that way about it, because it means that I have failed in my efforts to help.

The time may come when you have a change of heart on this matter, in which case I hope you will bring us more information about your experiments. Knowledge is everything, and communication is often the biggest problem in exchanging information.

We will hope for a better day.

Alex,

Im jumping in here one more time... the PRO1 and the G6 have both a setting in the menu called SLOW SYNCHRO, wich tells the camera to use whatever reading it would get without the falsh and then fire the flash (during the first or second curtain also selectable through menus)... this could expalin the differences, in Auto im almost sure this settings are overriden. Please try setting this menu feature to off and comment again on your results.

good luck,

Rafa Polit (jr.)
Quito, Ecuador

Actually now that Rafa mentions the Slow Synchro, I'm reminded about that "Safety Shift" setting, too (in the G6 anyway) that overrides settings, that would affect the outcomes of the test, for sure.

Bb.

Thanks RafaPolit!!!
Slow Syncro was ON,
I turned it OFF and it worked!!!!!
Now everything works like it should be!

All the readings are consistent with what I would expect:
P mode consistent with AUTO, and FLASH ON/OFF gives different readings of exposure...
I actually understand now what is happening with my camera.

I am now gonna read about the Slow Syncro feature...

Thanks again
RafaPolit, Robert and everyone else who participated.

I will go shoot some photos now
Alex.

Dear Rafa, BB and Alex,

Just got back from my camping trip.
I checked Slow Synchro on my G5 and it is set to OFF.
That would seem to indicate that there was a difference in the way my camera was set up in comparison to Alex's camera.

I want to thank both BB and Rafa for pointing out this possible difference.

According to the manual, page 61, if you set Slow Synchro to ON it makes it possible to use the flash with slow shutter speeds.

With my camera, with Slow Synchro turned ON, in P mode with Flash in Auto and in a dark room, the flash fires and the shutter speed will be 1 second.

Conversely, with Slow Synchro turned OFF, in P mode with Flash in Auto and in a dark room, the flash fires and the shutter speed will be 1/60 second. That's completely different behavior.

I'm still thinking about what all that means.

Alex:

Great!!! It's a nice thing when this kind of "problems" come to a nice solution, and even better if one ends with a better understanding of one's camera, thats why this forums (this one in particular) are so great. Its nice to have been of some help.

To Alex and Bob, some more info on the Slow Synchro,

Normaly, one would use the Slow Synchro OFF to have 1/60 to 1/250 exposures to have sharp unblured subjects on the image, but, for example, on a night shot of a portrait against city lights for instance, or against a very very late sunset, the face of your subject will be perfectly lit, but the background would be completely dark, as 1/60 doesnt quite make it for this situation.

In this case, setting Slow Synchro to ON would force the camera to measure light as if shot without the flash, giving exposures up to 1". In those cases, the face would be exposed in an instant with the flash, but the background would have also a correct exposure. This would seem as a perfect solution for all shooting conditions, not only specific circumstances, but if your subject moves while "the other half" of the image is being exposed, your subject will have the flashes sharp definition, and a ghost of blur all around added because of this movement, which ruins the picture.

On the other hand, if everything in frame is within the range of the flash, setting it to ON will probably acomplish very little, and will introduce problems with hand shake, forcing the use of a trypod, with very little difference between the pictures. So this feature truly shows its value when several planes at large distances one from each other are in frame, or for special shots of fireplaces, candles, moving vehicles, and several other conditions.

So Alex, now that you will "go shoot some photos now" im sure you will share them with us!! Happy shooting

Rafa Polit (jr.)
Quito, Ecuador.

Thanks Rafa Polit,
it was indeed a very good explanation!

I agree with Alex and want to thank you again Rafa for the additional insight into how it is used. I saw what the manual says, but it was not at all obvious how you make use of the feature. You cleared that up quite well.

By the way, I have a friend who works as a transmitter engineer at the big short wave station near Quito - you may know some of those people - right? His name is Tim Zook.