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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 03 Aug 2011 (Wednesday) 11:02
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ssim
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Aug 14, 2011 19:52 as a reply to  @ post 12934918 |  #31

TooManyShots wrote in post #12876387 (external link)
I never understand this mentality that the "livelihood" of a "pro photog" is threatened because someone is shooting for less. We can easily turn this argument into photogs shooting for a living versus for FREE. In this case, let's say the OP is shooting it for FREE. It is a losing battle competing against photogs shooting for FREE. It has been said before here, if you can't compete against photogs shooting for FREE, it is time to change the way you market yourself.

I really tire of hearing this. It is really easy for those that don't do this full time to make the statement that you need to change. If you have a full time photography business you are paying taxes, facility expenses, staff expenses and all the high fixed costs that go along with running a business. So let me ask you just how are they supposed to change. It is easy to say but not always so easy to institute a fiscally responsible plan that allow you to maintain the business in the black. I can say for myself that I have been fortunate in business but I don't chase the normal kind of work that the weekend warriors do.

Considering that the OP is in university I would think that he could use the extra money by charging market rates. I personally think the whole "I'm doing them a favor" is an out for I just want to shoot.

This is going to be an never ending debate and the industry is changed forever. Some will say for the better, others will disagree. It is what it is. I have worked many events with weekend warriors and by and large most are very great to work with. Some just want to stick it to the full time working photographer.


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TooManyShots
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Aug 14, 2011 20:46 |  #32
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ssim wrote in post #12935169 (external link)
I really tire of hearing this. It is really easy for those that don't do this full time to make the statement that you need to change. If you have a full time photography business you are paying taxes, facility expenses, staff expenses and all the high fixed costs that go along with running a business. So let me ask you just how are they supposed to change. It is easy to say but not always so easy to institute a fiscally responsible plan that allow you to maintain the business in the black. I can say for myself that I have been fortunate in business but I don't chase the normal kind of work that the weekend warriors do.

Considering that the OP is in university I would think that he could use the extra money by charging market rates. I personally think the whole "I'm doing them a favor" is an out for I just want to shoot.

This is going to be an never ending debate and the industry is changed forever. Some will say for the better, others will disagree. It is what it is. I have worked many events with weekend warriors and by and large most are very great to work with. Some just want to stick it to the full time working photographer.


I didn't coin the concept but it has been repeated here very often. I think there is a truth to it. Remember, non of us is big enough to influence the market and to set trend. If you are Microsoft, Canon, Nikon, or Apple. You shape the market. You set the trends. Regardless how you want to operate your business in the name of "to save the industry," it isn't happening. Everyone who is trying to "save the industry" is futile. What caused the demise of the photography as a profession in general is the explosion of the digital media.


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wyofizz
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Aug 14, 2011 21:46 as a reply to  @ TooManyShots's post |  #33

ssim, maybe you could change it up by standing on your head while you shoot. I agree with you completely, it's become a cliche for those who want to get on the sidelines by taking shortcuts.


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TooManyShots
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Aug 14, 2011 21:53 |  #34
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wyofizz wrote in post #12935835 (external link)
ssim, maybe you could change it up by standing on your head while you shoot. I agree with you completely, it's become a cliche for those who want to get on the sidelines by taking shortcuts.


No man, is about accepting the trend but to go above and beyond it. So that you don't whine about photogs shooting for free is competing your job. Is about changing what you have controls. Not to dwell in the delusions and dissolution of the industry and hoping we are still shooting films with medium format bodies.


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wyofizz
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Aug 14, 2011 22:24 as a reply to  @ TooManyShots's post |  #35

I agree pros need to go above and beyond. Start putting those operating illegally in jail. After all "business is business", right from your playbook.


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JacobPhoto
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Aug 15, 2011 00:49 as a reply to  @ wyofizz's post |  #36

guess what? Both photographers are allowed to be there, and both photographers are allowed to charge rates accordingly. That's the end of the story. If one photographer wants to have an upper hand on the other, perhaps they should explore offering something that the other doesn't offer.

I mostly shoot automotive races, and I've shot at many races that have anywhere from 20 to 50 to over 100 photographers who are authorized to be there. Some are making 10 times what I do. Sometimes, I make 10 times what they do. Does that mean that one has more of a reason to be there than the other? Not necessarily. The one thing I noticed is that the less a photographer is being paid, the more likely they are to feel 'entitled' to shoot in certain locations, but that might be because the photographers who are making more are usually used to working with the situation at hand.

For what it's worth, I've never been fond of the 'sell prints to the participants' model, I think it's way too much footwork for what you take home. The exception is if you are the 'official' photographer of an event in which you are likely to make a day-rate from the organizer and have either exclusive access or an on-site for sale kiosk (or both). If you are just "another" photographer who's authorized to work there, then what you do with your photos (within the constraints of your access privileges) is your own business.


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Nightstalker
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Aug 15, 2011 12:41 |  #37

If the OP only made £300 ish from a week long event I can't see why a professional would want to be there.

Damn, I'd be expecting to make that in under a couple of hours at a decent event.

Obviously this was a labour of love.


  
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BreitlingFan
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Aug 16, 2011 11:20 |  #38
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primoz wrote in post #12880744 (external link)
Then take photos for yourself, have fun and go home after event. Why do you feel you need to sell photos? Just because you think you know what you are doing? It's definitely not because you want to earn some money to pay off your equipment, because with those ridiculous prices you won't pay off even electricity needed to edit those photos on computer.

If I read this right, only people who do photography for a living should sell photos.

That's beyond absurd. That's painfully absurd...


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BreitlingFan
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Aug 16, 2011 11:24 |  #39
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If I've arranged to shoot somewhere through an event organizer, I seriously couldn't give a rat's ass if another photographer also on site likes that I'm there, or dislikes my rates. I really, really don't care.

Take your beef to the event organizer and leave me alone...


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DiMAn0684
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Aug 16, 2011 18:06 |  #40

wyofizz wrote in post #12936074 (external link)
I agree pros need to go above and beyond. Start putting those operating illegally in jail. After all "business is business", right from your playbook.

The only potentially illegal part here is that fergus123 suggests that he might not have to pay taxes. If he were to charge 30% extra (to cover taxes) I'm guessing he'd still be significantly undercutting the other photographer and taking away just as much business.

The point is that cost of photography went down significantly in the past years and one no longer needs to worry about film, lab, etc. This allowed many more people, who're not full time photographers, to enter the field and develop skill sets fairly quickly as digital photography allowed to see the photos right away and Internet was there with its wealth of information and forums for speedy feedback. As result of this there're currently more people who're capable of taking quality photos and since the supply went up the profit margins on photography went down. The pros now have to be either much better photogs than "weekend warriors" or much better businessmen to make good money and this will still hold true if all the "weekend warriors" will start paying taxes.


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fergus123
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Aug 28, 2011 16:58 |  #41

ssim wrote in post #12935169 (external link)
Considering that the OP is in university I would think that he could use the extra money by charging market rates. I personally think the whole "I'm doing them a favor" is an out for I just want to shoot.


Wow you need to calm down, And that is not true at all.


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Nightstalker
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Aug 28, 2011 17:24 |  #42

fergus123 wrote in post #13014920 (external link)
Wow you need to calm down, And that is not true at all.

I'm sorry to say that you come across as a typical GWC with a f*ck you attitude.

You need to realise why your attitude will piss off all of the professional, full-time photographers on here that use photography as a means to pay their mortgage and put food on the table. There is no realistic way that a professional can compete with hobby shooter rates because you are working in part for enjoyment and some pocket money whereas they need to make a living out of it.

I understand that you are young and that to you £300 may be a good return for a weeks work - hell it beats minimum wage at McDonalds (just) - but that job would not have been economically viable for most, if not all, full time shooters.

I just hope that whatever career you get into that you are not faced with people who are prepared to do your job for 1/2 or 1/3rd of the going market rate - then, and only then will you understand why full time photographers react the way they do when faced with attitudes like yours - it is not a nice place to be.

A friend of mine is looking for a driving job with the NHS transporting people to and from hospital - but most of the jobs available are now volunteer jobs whereby you get to use your own car, fuel and time to do a valuable job for no compensation.

The people who do this volunteering are doing so for the best of reasons and in the belief that they are helping out the needy in society, which they are, but they are also doing people out of jobs.

Do you see the similarity?


  
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TooManyShots
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Aug 28, 2011 19:50 |  #43
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Nightstalker wrote in post #13015089 (external link)
I'm sorry to say that you come across as a typical GWC with a f*ck you attitude.

You need to realise why your attitude will piss off all of the professional, full-time photographers on here that use photography as a means to pay their mortgage and put food on the table. There is no way realistic that a professional can compete with hobby shooter rates because you are working in part for enjoyment and some pocket money whereas they need to make a living out of it.

I understand that you are young and that to you £300 may be a good return for a weeks work - hell it beats minimum wage at McDonalds (just) - but that job would not have been economically viable for most, if not all, full time shooters.

I just hope that whatever career you get into that you are not faced with people who are prepared to do your job for 1/2 or 1/3rd of the going market rate - then, and only then will you understand why full time photographers react the way they do when faced with attitudes like yours - it is not a nice place to be.

A friend of mine is looking for a driving job with the NHS transporting people to and from hospital - but most of the jobs available are now volunteer jobs whereby you get to use your own car, fuel and time to do a valuable job for no compensation.

The people who do this volunteering are doing so for the best of reasons and in the belief that they are helping out the needy in society, which they are, but they are also doing people out of jobs.

Do you see the similarity?


Let's back track here. Most likely, like most people, he or she would work for a company. If he or she is out of the job because someone is working for less, he or she can't blame that person. It is the company's fault. In reality, that's often the way the world works. Fired or laid off people with long tenure and hiring someone new to cut cost for the company.


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J ­ Michael
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Aug 29, 2011 07:20 |  #44

Yes to most businesses you are a replaceable commodity and they'll buy the cheapest one that gets the work done. The comment upstream about offering something the competition doesn't was spot on. Photography attracts those willing to work for small change. Those who are successful create or fill a niche which is difficult for others to fill due to particular skillsets, equipment, or technical requirements.




  
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Nightstalker
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Aug 29, 2011 14:15 |  #45

TooManyShots wrote in post #13015773 (external link)
Let's back track here. Most likely, like most people, he or she would work for a company. If he or she is out of the job because someone is working for less, he or she can't blame that person. It is the company's fault. In reality, that's often the way the world works. Fired or laid off people with long tenure and hiring someone new to cut cost for the company.

No, you are right, you cannot blame the person who is stupid enough for work for nothing and who allows themselves to be made use of - you can however be annoyed at the stupidity that they display in letting themselves be exploited for less than market rates.

It is easy to say that market rates are set by competition but how would the OP have felt if I had turned up, with approval from the organisers, and just given away a CD of high-res images to all of the participants because I had a few days free time, just fancied something to do and didn't need the money as I'd just completed a 2 day, £3,000 product shoot.

Free beats cheap any day of the week.

I'm sure that he would have been really upset if he had shot for a full week expecting to make some money only to go away with £0.


  
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