Outdoor wedding group and family shots

I posed this question in the wedding forum as part of a more general discussion, but it really belongs here. I'm trying to minimize the gear I have to bring and setup in multiple places. I'm the primary shooter at this wedding. Ceremony and group/family shots will be outside (weather permitting). The reception will move inside (same location). I will definitely need to setup a couple of strobes inside for better lighting. But this question has to do with the outdoor group shots. I'll setup somewhere with a scenic backdrop, where the sun makes a nice hair and accent light. I'll be shooting mid to late afternoon and expect there to be decent ambient light. So I'll just need something to fill shadows, but I'll be shooting groups of 2-3 to much larger groups. Easiest thing, if it would work and provide enough power, would be to use my 580EX off-camera for fill. I could leave the strobes setup inside, and ETTL would help with changing lighting conditions outside. However, I suspect it won't provide enough power for larger groups, and I'm not sure which modifier to use with it (I can use any Elinchrom modifier with the Kacey Elinchrom adapter). If a strobe is called for outside, I can certainly do that. Just means lugging more stuff and moving it. If I use a 600RX for this, which modifier would work best in an outdoor setting to cover various size groups? Thanks.

Oh, and I just noticed that missing from my gear/lighting list is that I have a couple of 60" Softlighter II's also.

Modifiers outside depend greatly on wind conditions.
For weddings I try to keep it simple. For groups with back to sun the main thing is to open up shadows in eyes etc. That can usually be accomplished with a 580EX on a stand, two one on each side if its a big group.

For two or three people the 580EX on camera is often sufficient. Use FEC and EC to balance things and keep flash in the fill mode.

For outdoor portraits I use two Einsteins and PLMs if wind permits. But would be reluctant to drag all that out for family shots at a wedding without an assistant.

Thanks, David. Well, I only have one 580EX. So if I need more than that, I'll probably setup a strobe instead. I'm thinking one strobe with a decent size modifier, although I'm worried about wind too. I haven't tried the 53" octa with front diffuser in the wind and wonder how that would be for even a large group. I definitely don't want to haul out the 74" octa, although I'm sure someone will say that would be ideal! So I guess I'm asking if anyone has pulled this sort of thing off with a single 580EX. If not, I'll just resign myself to bringing a strobe for the outside shots as well.

Your 580EX on the hotshoe will get the job done for small groups, as long as you don't go wasting its power with a softbox or some other modifier. Diffuse the light from a hotshoe flash and you have an extremely weak light.

For the bigger groups you'll need to haul out one of the big guns. Keep it simple, put the light straight above you with a small softbox and worry about the important stuff like bridemaids' boobs falling out of ill-fitting dresses. Grab some kid that looks bored, make him feel important by having him hold onto your lightstand in the wind, and slip him a few bucks for the effort.

More lights won't necessarily make better pictures. They'll create cross shadows that ruin group shots.

Dave,

I am not understanding one thing. If sun at the back and you don't want to blow the bg how can single 580ex fill in the shadows (assuming using some modifier). The front of the subject vs bg would be couple of stops difference isn't it?

I will have one big light with a modifier of choice and shoot like Curtis mentioned. No softliter as it sucks power IMHO.

So it sounds like the safer route is to just plan on using one of the 600RX strobes on a stand with a modifier above and behind me. I can also bring sandbags, in that case, and use my tronix explorer as a "sandbag" too. Would the "baby" DO (27") work for this or would the 39" DO be better? Just the inner diffuser or would the outer diffuser help with wind conditions? Can you tell I haven't used studio strobes outside much? I could also use a beauty dish instead of a small softbox, if that would work just as well and also be more stable in the wind. I have the 22" Kacey BD and expect to have the Mola Setti before the wedding.

Well, feedback is still welcome on this, but I was able to do some experiments today when it was sunny instead of raining all day like they forecasted here. I tried using the 39" DO with white deflector and inner diffuser only. I was able to get f8-f11 across a wide range (adequate for a group shot), especially when I shot at ISO 200-400 to better balance the ambient light. Now I just have to decide whether to bring two strobes and move one from outside to inside as the wedding moves inside or bring three strobes, with one just for use outside.

Have you read this?

I'm finding your question a bit confusing, probably because i'm not feeling well. If you can clearly list the locations of the different photos you need to take, and about how many people will be in each, i'll tell you how i'd light them.

Quick thoughts though:
- Outside groups: sun behind them, no flash (it only reaches the first row of people anyway)
- Inside groups: ceiling bounce with the biggest light you have available

No modifiers.

you are really overthinking the outdoor group shots. just keep it simple: use the strobe with the 7" reflector at a far enough distance to provide adequate group lighting. if you use a light modifier, you run the risk of uneven coverage or needing an additional strobe with modifier to balance the effect. if you are looking for a fill effect, just the strobes at a further distance to get the power/f stop you need.

If you use a light outdoors in a group that's more than one row deep then you must have it directly above your lens, otherwise if the light is off to one side some people will be in shadow. I learned that one the hard way.

Generally outdoors I don't need to add light for group photos, unless it's a single row group with a bright background. Given I can move the group around, and that I have a ladder, I can choose my light.

Well, that's what I was thinking: use a single strobe above and directly behind me, to throw a fill light onto the group. I don't have a complete list of all the group shots yet, but it varies from 2-3 people to fairly large groups. For instance, the bridesmaids plus groomsmen plus bride and groom = 17 people. And since I'll be dealing with multiple rows of people, I was thinking I better shoot at f8 or so. I figured I'd need the strobe to not only fill shadows but supplement ambient light to properly illuminate everyone on the group.

By the way, Tim, thanks for that link that shows your setup for receptions. I hadn't seen that before, and it was an interesting and helpful read. If I use two strobes for this instead of speedlights, what do you think would be optimal meter readings at the head table and on the dance floor? You seem to be choosing power settings on the flash that allow for quite a bit of the ambient light to play a part in each picture.

ISO 1600 F8 works fine even if it's not so bright. Get up a ladder if there's more than 2 rows of people.

For the reception and the first dance I just set my flashes to whatever I feel like and then set the camera exposure to match. For a first dance I want really fast recharge so low power, for receptions I want lower ISO and smaller apertures.

Actually, I hadn't even thought about bringing a small step ladder, but it's probably a good idea. The groom and father of the groom are both around 6'5", and I'm 5'7"...and with multi-row group shots, it would be nice to have too. Thanks for the suggestion. I also understand better why less strobe power might be a better at the reception. My plan for the reception, right now, is to position two 600RX strobes in the room to provide good light coverage when bounced. On my camera flash bracket, I'll have a FlexTT5 with my 580EX mounted on it...with a Lumiquest Promax on the flash with a bounce card. I can then easily choose between no flash, just the flash on the bracket, or the flash plus the strobes. That would give me a lot of flexibility to shoot at different apertures and get different looks.