Sharpening for prints in LR

1.What is the best sharpening settings to use in LR3 for prints when it comes to sizes like 5x7 and 8x10? I just received some prints from WHCC and they look a bit over sharpened on bigger prints like 8x10's.

2. Does sharpening in develop mode effects the print?

I also used in export window "sharpen for prints" option to medium on glossy.

Thanks for any help

There is no best sharpening settings, depends on the subject and your personal vision and tastes. I would suggest increasing the image size to 1:1 and watch as you adjust sharpness to see where the sweet spot is. If you struggle to find the sweet spot, try sliding the amount slider all the way in each direction, observe the results so you will see what too much or too little sharpening looks like. Same for radius and detail.

Gizmo1137 wrote in post #12918483
There is no best sharpening settings, depends on the subject and your personal vision and tastes. I would suggest increasing the image size to 1:1 and watch as you adjust sharpness to see where the sweet spot is. If you struggle to find the sweet spot, try sliding the amount slider all the way in each direction, observe the results so you will see what too much or too little sharpening looks like. Same for radius and detail.

What about the sharpening method for prints in the output export screen? does that acts the same way as the sharpening you do in develop tab? i am confused, why there are two ways of sharpening? by the way this is for portraits.

tolyD wrote in post #12918094
2. Does sharpening in develop mode effects the print?

Yes, obviously.

As does the "output sharpening" applied on export.
The first offers a preview, the second does not.

René Damkot wrote in post #12918870
Yes, obviously.

As does the "output sharpening" applied on export.
The first offers a preview, the second does not.

I should have phrased it diferently . I just thought that maybe the output sharpening sharpens some other unique way specially for prints.

tolyD wrote in post #12919036
I should have phrased it diferently . I just thought that maybe the output sharpening sharpens some other unique way specially for prints.

There have been numerous articles written for the Web that deal with Lightroom sharpening, the difference between the Develop sharpening and the Output/Export sharpening controls, and also suggested approaches to sharpening using the two methods.

I have to say I have to say I haven't thoroughly "read up"on this and so can't point you to the "best" sites. Some others here may have good pointers.

One good site to keep your eye on is PixelGenius.com -- it has a team of genuine experts who offer both "products" you can purchase as well as some tutorials and such.

Here for example is a pdf about Lightroom sharpening from them:

http://www.pixelgenius​.com …/Sharpener-Manual-200.pdf

There are numerous other sites that offer various levels of instruction: Adobe, KelbyTraining.com, Lynda.com and LightroomKillerTips.co​m (the Adobe site and KillerTiips have free tutorials.

Basically, besides following the tips from myself and others here, the most useful things for you could be 1) Do Google searches and take your time to follow through, trying phrases like "lightroom sharpening tutorial" or simply "lightroom sharpening" will give you a wealth of info.

And then, what you will find is that different folks will have different strokes. Each of us over time will develop workflow preferences, and this is one field where that applies. I myself pay attention to my Develop work for Sharpening and Noise Reduction, aimaing for a good balance between the two, because to me it's important to "get things right" at that lower level. For the Output sharpening, I don't pay a lot of attention -- generally the Standard setting for Screen or Print seem to work fine for me (I can always revisit things if needed). I have seen things overdone with a High setting (I've seen it on 8x10 prints) so I normally just don't change from Standard.

tolyD wrote in post #12919036
I should have phrased it diferently . I just thought that maybe the output sharpening sharpens some other unique way specially for prints.

I am an Aperture user but I have used LR, having said that, I believe the output sharpening is there for those who do not want to take the time or not sure about good sharpening techniques and/or to speed up the workflow. But if you sharpen your image in the sharpen pane in the develop module, no need and probably should not select sharpening in output.

Gizmo1137 wrote in post #12920203
I am an Aperture user but I have used LR, having said that, I believe the output sharpening is there for those who do not want to take the time or not sure about good sharpening techniques and/or to speed up the workflow. But if you sharpen your image in the sharpen pane in the develop module, no need and probably should not select sharpening in output.

yep and I think I over did it this way.

tonylong wrote in post #12919658
There have been numerous articles written for the Web that deal with Lightroom sharpening, the difference between the Develop sharpening and the Output/Export sharpening controls, and also suggested approaches to sharpening using the two methods.

I have to say I have to say I haven't thoroughly "read up"on this and so can't point you to the "best" sites. Some others here may have good pointers.

One good site to keep your eye on is PixelGenius.com -- it has a team of genuine experts who offer both "products" you can purchase as well as some tutorials and such.

Here for example is a pdf about Lightroom sharpening from them:

http://www.pixelgenius​.com …/Sharpener-Manual-200.pdf

There are numerous other sites that offer various levels of instruction: Adobe, KelbyTraining.com, Lynda.com and LightroomKillerTips.co​m (the Adobe site and KillerTiips have free tutorials.

Basically, besides following the tips from myself and others here, the most useful things for you could be 1) Do Google searches and take your time to follow through, trying phrases like "lightroom sharpening tutorial" or simply "lightroom sharpening" will give you a wealth of info.

And then, what you will find is that different folks will have different strokes. Each of us over time will develop workflow preferences, and this is one field where that applies. I myself pay attention to my Develop work for Sharpening and Noise Reduction, aimaing for a good balance between the two, because to me it's important to "get things right" at that lower level. For the Output sharpening, I don't pay a lot of attention -- generally the Standard setting for Screen or Print seem to work fine for me (I can always revisit things if needed). I have seen things overdone with a High setting (I've seen it on 8x10 prints) so I normally just don't change from Standard.

Thanks Tony for your input, I'll do some more searcining...

Gizmo1137 wrote in post #12920203
I am an Aperture user but I have used LR, having said that, I believe the output sharpening is there for those who do not want to take the time or not sure about good sharpening techniques and/or to speed up the workflow. But if you sharpen your image in the sharpen pane in the develop module, no need and probably should not select sharpening in output.

The sharpening algorithms used in Lightroom 3, and I think 2 as well, are based on the algorithms developed by Bruce Fraser and the Pixel Genius group.

The sharpening sliders in Lightroom are equivalent to the creative sharpening in the PG workflow.

Output sharpening is specific to the media and size being output.

If your prints look over sharpened it there are two or three things to test. First, how good a job did you do with creative sharpening in Lightroom, using the sliders? If you over did it here, the output sharpening with just exaggerate the problem.

Second, did you select an appropriate PPI for the output based on how lab is processing the file? If you selected 100 PPI and the lab bases it print sizing on 300 PPI there is a likelihood that the lab had to upres the image. Same would be true in reverse. Either will impact the final sharpening.
Also, if the lab is using a RIP into the c-print line or on an inkjet printer it is probably best to not do any output sharpening since the RIP will apply sharpening.

Go to Luminous Landscape web site and invest in the Lightroom tutorial video series. It discusses sharpening and Jeff Schewe, one of the presenters is a partner in Pixel Genius and worked with Bruce Fraser developing the sharpening algorithms.

tonylong wrote in post #12919658
Basically, besides following the tips from myself and others here, the most useful things for you could be 1) Do Google searches and take your time to follow through, trying phrases like "lightroom sharpening tutorial" or simply "lightroom sharpening" will give you a wealth of info.

The problem with this is that there's potentially a very significant difference between sharpening in a way that makes the print look the best, and sharpening based on the steps that I read on some tutorial that came up on Google.

If I find ten different sharpening methods with my Google search, how do I know if any of them are better than the method that I'm currently using? Having only been at this a little more than a year, my eye isn't quite trained well enough yet to distinguish from "properly sharpened" and "incorrectly sharpened." I might sharpen in a way that looks pretty good to me on my screen, but a trained eye would be able to pick out flaws - haloing, artifacts, etc.

I prefer a tutorial that tells me not only what to do, but also what NOT to do, and more importantly WHY to do or not do each step. If the tutorial simply gives me the steps without any further explanation, then I'm not really learning everything I need to know.

Hopefully the Pixelgenius PDF will give me what I'm craving. Sharpening and NR are still two important aspects of post-processing that I know I'm not doing as well I as could.

[edit] I've done the Lynda LR3 essentials, which briefly covers sharpening; and the Adobe TV LR3 videos which pretty much just say "Here are the sliders, look what they can do," but my understanding is still somewhat lacking.

dmward wrote in post #12922454
The sharpening algorithms used in Lightroom 3, and I think 2 as well, are based on the algorithms developed by Bruce Fraser and the Pixel Genius group.

The sharpening sliders in Lightroom are equivalent to the creative sharpening in the PG workflow.

Output sharpening is specific to the media and size being output.

If your prints look over sharpened it there are two or three things to test. First, how good a job did you do with creative sharpening in Lightroom, using the sliders? If you over did it here, the output sharpening with just exaggerate the problem.

Second, did you select an appropriate PPI for the output based on how lab is processing the file? If you selected 100 PPI and the lab bases it print sizing on 300 PPI there is a likelihood that the lab had to upres the image. Same would be true in reverse. Either will impact the final sharpening.
Also, if the lab is using a RIP into the c-print line or on an inkjet printer it is probably best to not do any output sharpening since the RIP will apply sharpening.

Go to Luminous Landscape web site and invest in the Lightroom tutorial video series. It discusses sharpening and Jeff Schewe, one of the presenters is a partner in Pixel Genius and worked with Bruce Fraser developing the sharpening algorithms.

My prints were done at 300ppi and I think that's what WHCC requires. Next time i send images for printing i will avoid using output sharpening and i will check for difference in image quality. I think once you have used sharpening in develop mode then Output Sharpening should be disabled to prevent over sharpening if thats how it works according to responses above.

Ok IF those two options do work the same way then why is there sharpening for Matt and Glossy paper? Obviously there is a difference in this Output Sharpening method!?!? So what is a good setting for matt and glossy paper?

I found this to be interesting: http://x-equals.com/blog/?p=184​7
Is this about right? This article is telling that the "Output Sharpening" IT IS NOT the same as in develop mode.

tolyD wrote in post #12922862
I found this to be interesting: http://x-equals.com/blog/?p=184​7
Is this about right? This article is telling that the "Output Sharpening" IT IS NOT the same as in develop mode.

Indeed it isn't. Which is why I said:

René Damkot wrote in post #12918870
As does the "output sharpening" applied on export.
The first offers a preview, the second does not.

You do your sharpening (and NR) in the Develop module, viewing at 100%. You sharpen here to overcome any softness caused by the AA filter in the camera.
The output sharpening is set upon export, and it's based on what you set and the output size.