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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 25 Oct 2005 (Tuesday) 06:07
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E-TTL & Partial Metering

 
ricphoto
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Oct 25, 2005 06:07 |  #1

Quick question (as if that's possible, eh ?),

If I have my 20D set to partial metering and the centre red square is 'active' in autofocus, will the meter reading with a 580 EX provide the correct flash exposure ONLY for that spot covered by the centre red square ?

As opposed to the metering 'considering' what is going on elsewhere in the photo and then 'averaging' things out.

Quite important as the centre red square will be covering an area of deep shadow in bright daylight, whilst the surrounding areas will be filled with extremely bright, although somewhat diffused light.

Thanks




  
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René ­ Damkot
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Oct 25, 2005 07:13 |  #2

AFAIK the flash metering will be evaluative, unless you use FEL. (Maybe in combination with spot metering, your manual should provide the answer there)
Sounds like pretty controlled circumstances, so why not use Manual flash?


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scottbergerphoto
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Oct 25, 2005 07:28 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #3

Terms like Partial Metering, Spot Metering, and Center Weighted metering do not apply to flash. There is no spot flash metering. The 20D uses ETTL2, which has no relation to the AF points. In ETTL2, the camera uses the pre flash to determine where the subject is and biases the sensors from that area. Please read :

"E-TTL II is never linked to the active focusing point. In fact, that is one of the main differences between E-TTL II and the original version of E-TTL. There's a brief description of E-TTL II with sample images on Canon Inc.'s EOS-1D Mark II web site here.

Here's what we published in the EOS-1D Mark II White Paper document:

ADVANCED E-TTL II
New algorithm gives greater flash exposure control

For improved flash control using Canon EX series Speedlites, a new algorithm has been developed which enables superior E-TTL flash accuracy and reliability. In previous cameras, evaluative flash metering was based on the assumption that an autofocus point would cover the subject. When this is not the case, inaccurate flash exposures result. The EOS-1D Mark II’s evaluative flash metering is not dependent on the active AF point.

In the new algorithm, ambient light is measured when the shutter button is pressed. Next, a pre-flash is fired and the metering sensor takes readings at the central 17 metering zones. The ambient and pre-flash readings are compared. The metering areas having a small difference are selected as the flash exposure metering areas. (Areas with very big differences between ambient and pre-flash readings are excluded or down weighted because they are assumed to contain a highly reflective object or that the subject is not in that part of the frame. The algorithm avoids chronic underexposure problems in such situations.) These readings are weighted, averaged and compared with the ambient light reading, and the main flash output is then set and stored in memory. E-TTL II weights and averages the flash metering for the subject and all other objects at the same distance as the subject. Even if the subject’s position, reflectance or size changes, the flash output will not change radically. The flash exposure will be highly accurate and stable.

Most EF lenses provide distance information, and this data is also considered in determining if there is a highly reflective object, once again lessening the chance of underexposure.
*************** ***

Additional info on E-TTL II:

In essence, distance information is not required for E-TTL II. But when it is available and the flash is direct, then it can be used as a reference to modify the flash exposure if necessary.

Additionally, the EOS-1D Mark II is provided with a new Custom Function (C.Fn 14-1) that allows photographers to select between evaluative and averaged flash metering in E-TTL II. Averaged flash metering may be preferable when using direct flash with lenses that don't have a built-in distance encoder, but we encourage Mark II owners to try both settings on C.Fn 14 to see which metering method they prefer.

E-TTL II is functional with all EF lenses, not just the ones with distance data. If you use a lens without distance data, the only thing you lose is the Mark II's ability to modify the flash exposure based on distance data. Everything else works the same. The Mark II *never* falls back to E-TTL.

There's never any "full-frame" flash metering in E-TTL or E-TTL II. In both cases, with EOS cameras that use a 45-point focusing system/21-zone metering sensor, all flash metering is carried out by the 17 metering segments within the Area AF ellipse shown in the viewfinder. Subject matter outside the ellipse is completely ignored in terms of flash exposure control.

C.Fn 14-0 on a Mark II allows E-TTL II flash metering to be subject-based, so it can use anywhere from 1 to 17 metering segments depending on the camera's analysis of the pre-flash information. This is not a spot meter reading, unless the camera determines that the subject is so small that it occupies only one of the 17 metering segments. Most subjects will cover a larger area than that. The big improvement here over the original E-TTL algorithm is that the size and location of the primary flash metering area can change dynamically according to the size and location of the subject. In the original E-TTL algorithm, the size, location and weighting of the primary flash metering area was linked to the active focusing point.

C.Fn 14-1 on a Mark II applies the E-TTL II flash metering algorithm equally to all 17 metering segments within the Area AF ellipse, so in comparison to 14-0, 14-1 is not subject-based.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, the setting of the focus mode switch on the lens has no bearing on E-TTL II flash metering, so C.Fn 14-0 and 14-1 are effective whether the lens is set for AF or manual focus.

***

There are two differences between original E-TTL and E-TTL II in this particular comparison:

1. E-TTL II will factor in distance information when it is available during direct flash operation, regardless of the C.Fn 14 or C.Fn 4 setting. Standard E-TTL does not use distance info.

2. When C.Fn 14-1 is active on the Mark II, E-TTL II flashmetering is averaged for all 17 metering segments regardless of the C.Fn 4 setting or the focus mode set on the lens. This gives the photographer more flexibility in setting up the camera according to their personal preferences. Original E-TTL can't average its flashmetering unless specific camera settings are used."

---------------
Chuck Westfall
Director/Technical Marketing Dept.
Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.


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René ­ Damkot
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Oct 25, 2005 08:20 |  #4

Well, actually what I was referring to: On a 1D2, the manual says (translated from dutch):
"When CFn-13-1/3 is selected, FEL is possible with each selected AF point."
Sounds like spot metering to me.


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ricphoto
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Oct 25, 2005 08:34 |  #5

Hi Scott,
yes I read all that before after searching these forums... and am still going through it all very slowly and precisely getting it into my brain :)

I borrowed a 550EX for my work on the weekend and was far from impressed - bitterly disapoitned to be honest.
Have just bought a new 580EX for the 20D and am intensly studying the E-TTL2 subject and camera operation before applying it all to this one area of my work where I have till now been using an old fashioned manual National gun which I reckon has a guide number up near 70 !

Am keen to make the transition to E-TTL in this one area (drag racing actually), but see a lot of threads and comments about underexposed images with Canon EX flashes - as was my experience with the 550EX last weekend.

My National gun gave fantastic results on the 20D, but died and is now with an electronics specialist.

If the 580EX can't live up to the deep shadow penetration in daylight that the old 1980s National gun did, I am going to be bitterly dissapointed.

The deep shadow penetration capability is critical.




  
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René ­ Damkot
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Oct 25, 2005 08:40 |  #6

Why not buy an old Metz 45CT4 or 60CT4? If you're used to carrying 'big guns' ;)


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scottbergerphoto
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Oct 25, 2005 12:11 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #7

René Damkot wrote:
Well, actually what I was referring to: On a 1D2, the manual says (translated from dutch):
"When CFn-13-1/3 is selected, FEL is possible with each selected AF point."
Sounds like spot metering to me.

Page 151 of the 1DM2 Manual - CFn.13 refers only to ambient light metering. There is no mention of FEL. CFn. 13 allows you to limit the number of Manually selected AF points and link spot metering of ambient light to the manually selected AF point. There is no such thing as Spot Metering of flash. Please specify where that quotation came from as it doesn't exist in my manual. Maybe something isn't translating well from Dutch to English. If you read the post above, you will see why it just isn't possible.


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Cr_Kat
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Oct 25, 2005 18:44 as a reply to  @ scottbergerphoto's post |  #8

ricphoto, im in the same boat. I had my new 580ex at the track for the first time a couple weeks ago with mixed results. I bought the flash for night drag racing hoping it would be as easy as the instructions say it is, it isnt.

If you would like to see the thread, if you havent allready.

https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=105671

As you can see, some turned out fine, others, so so, and some dont even look like the flash fired. Very inconsistant.

Hope to get out there again this comin friday for another go at it tryin some of the things ive read here and other places.

Craig


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tim
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Oct 25, 2005 19:11 |  #9

Flash photography is a dark art.


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J ­ Rabin
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Oct 25, 2005 20:07 as a reply to  @ tim's post |  #10

tim wrote:
Flash photography is a dark art.

Damn Tim, that is true. Far more difficult than using camera features and even photography in general. But, flash does free one from relying on light of the moment. It's more a PJ hack worker's tool like (what I do), rather than art (composition). I''m an f/8 and be there kind of guy. Make the shot. Move on. To me, composition is more a dark art than flash.
J




  
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Oct 25, 2005 20:11 as a reply to  @ J Rabin's post |  #11

J Rabin wrote:
Damn Tim, that is true. Far more difficult than using camera features and even photography in general. But, flash does free one from relying on light of the moment. It's more a PJ hack worker's tool like (what I do), rather than art (composition). I''m an f/8 and be there kind of guy. Make the shot. Move on. To me, composition is more a dark art than flash.
J

I'm getting better with flash, since i'm an engineer I don't find it all that difficult to understand it and predict what the camera/flash system will do under most circumstances that I encounter. People who're less technical might have more trouble, but with practice and experience most people will get it right.

Composition's hard. Posing's hard. It's all hard really. Photos involving composition, posing, and light are quite challenging, but also the most satisfying when you get it right.


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René ­ Damkot
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Oct 26, 2005 04:52 as a reply to  @ scottbergerphoto's post |  #12

scottbergerphoto wrote:
Page 151 of the 1DM2 Manual - CFn.13 refers only to ambient light metering. There is no mention of FEL. CFn. 13 allows you to limit the number of Manually selected AF points and link spot metering of ambient light to the manually selected AF point. There is no such thing as Spot Metering of flash. Please specify where that quotation came from as it doesn't exist in my manual. Maybe something isn't translating well from Dutch to English. If you read the post above, you will see why it just isn't possible.

Well, page 151 in my dutch manual is talking about 'flitsbelichtingsvergr​endeling'. That's FEL. (last lines in the gray rectangle marked with a kind of notebook: additional info)
I tested it. It works. So maybe the english translation isn't accurate ;)
I tested on a white wall with a black poster. If I select a focus point over the poster, and press FEL I get way more flash then with FEL on a focuspoint on the wall.
Also: What post above are you referring to?


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scottbergerphoto
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Oct 26, 2005 07:24 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #13

René Damkot wrote:
Well, page 151 in my dutch manual is talking about 'flitsbelichtingsvergr​endeling'. That's FEL. (last lines in the gray rectangle marked with a kind of notebook: additional info)
I tested it. It works. So maybe the english translation isn't accurate ;)
I tested on a white wall with a black poster. If I select a focus point over the poster, and press FEL I get way more flash then with FEL on a focuspoint on the wall.
Also: What post above are you referring to?

If you won't believe Canon's Director of Technical Marketing on this issue, who am I to argue.


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René ­ Damkot
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Oct 26, 2005 07:50 |  #14

I like the subtle touch . . . :roll:
Well, if you are referring to Chuck W.'s article, (yes, I do believe him) it says:
"This is not a spot meter reading, unless the camera determines that the subject is so small that it occupies only one of the 17 metering segments."
Also, there's no mention of FEL anywhere.
Then again, if you won't believe me, who am I to argue. ;)
By all means, test it yourself, (I don't think you did) and see what happens. If you can explain to me what it is, if it's not spot metering, I will most humbly apologize.
Also, FWIW, two images, straight out of the camera, no PP, just resized.
Camera on tripod, FEL using far left and far right AF point.


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scottbergerphoto
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Oct 26, 2005 07:55 as a reply to  @ René Damkot's post |  #15

The whole point of ETTL2 is to make the AF points irrelevant to flash metering. The camera determines where the subject is regardless of which AF point you are using by measuring the preflash at 17 sensors within the central elipse. To say that you are using spot flash metering is to ignore the basis of ETTL2.


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E-TTL & Partial Metering
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