An old blokes perspective.

First off I am not a grumpy old git (I am old, I can be grumpy and I can be a git, but seldom all three at the same time)

I have been making a reasonable living with a camera for over 30 years but am still happy to be an early adopter of new technology, and since starting to move over to digital when Canon launched the D60 (that is D60 not 60D) I have stayed relatively consistent with their developments (see gear list).

I have been reasonably active on POTN for many years, and it has been great to see how much it has grown, in my early days here there were many people simply trying to work things out as many were in the same place as me in that they were transferring years of knowledge from the film world into the digital age.

Over the last few days I have had a bit more time to venture into parts of the forum that I have not been into for a very long time and I am really surprised by some of the things I have seen.

1. There are people giving advice that is simply wrong.
   
   
2. There are people offering opinions and then defending them as if they were set in stone and handed down to Moses on the mountain.
   
   
3. And despite some of the best moderators on the WWW there is often an undercurrent of rudeness and intolerance that is unpleasant but may just be a sign of the times.
   

I think this is just a sign of the times.

Technology has changed many things "that you used to be different"

and the online world just duplicates real life.. Some good, some bad, some ugly

and some old grumpy gits

neil_r wrote in post #12961766

1. There are people giving advice that is simply wrong.
   
   
2. There are people offering opinions and then defending them as if they were set in stone and handed down to Moses on the mountain.
   
   
3. And despite some of the best moderators on the WWW there is often an undercurrent of rudeness and intolerance that is unpleasant but may just be a sign of the times.
   

Interesting

I am still relatively young and relatively new to the forum too and my post count probably says a lot about the crap I have been posting in this forum . But like you I rarely venture into other parts of the forum or if I do I usually just watch others post and argue about their opinions.

I have 3 threads here that I consider home and I spam on those threads a lot but rarely would you see me give advice outside of those threads... and I agree with all your observations above.

With that said, I hope you continue to enjoy Photography in this modern day and age knowing that you put a lot more effort in learning your craft than a lot of us. Also, please just ignore those people that falls into your 2nd and 3rd observation, then POTN would be a lot more fun

Whilst I can empathise in a general sense I have no real feeling one way or another...

However, this is certainly true and certainly unfortunate;

neil_r wrote in post #12961766
Over the last few days I have had a bit more time to venture into parts of the forum that I have not been into for a very long time and I am really surprised by some of the things I have seen.

1. There are people giving advice that is simply wrong.
   
2. There are people offering opinions and then defending them as if they were set in stone and handed down to Moses on the mountain.
   
3. And despite some of the best moderators on the WWW there is often an undercurrent of rudeness and intolerance that is unpleasant but may just be a sign of the times.

I am pushing 50. Probably a few years behind you, based upon what you were working with.

Times are changing overall. I was a major rebel. Now, I am one of those in a chorus wondering why attitudes have changed so much.

It is now taken for granted that any idea repeated loudly enough and widely enough is true. It is also accepted that expertise is overrated, and anything one cannot understand in 15 seconds or less is only that way because the person trying to communicate e concept is weak or flawed.

I have been spending a lot of tine at a private US top university library. So based upon hundreds of hours there at all times of the day or night, I think the spoiled/ruined are suburban US kids.

Not all of them. Perhaps 60 to 70 percent.

They may turn around when they have to support a family. Maybe.

At risk of being classified among the wrong, I really do think you have that reversed. Or were you a member of the forum for seven years before going digital?

tzalman wrote in post #12962100
At risk of being classified among the wrong, I really do think you have that reversed. Or were you a member of the forum for seven years before going digital?

You are so right I put it down to my age.

One of the greatest things about digital photography versus film is the instant feedback that it gives. If you are dedicated to learning, being able to see what went wrong immediately and having a chance to fix it is invaluable. You can learn faster, experiment more, and spend less learning on digital. The key is learning the academics and being able to put that knowledge to work. That takes practice, and modern digital cameras make practicing easier.

Of course, that reflects a certain attitude and approach to the craft. Unfortunately attitude is one of the hardest things to fix.

^^ You are so right ......

What I really dispaire about is when someone has had their digital camera (possibly their first camera period) for a few months and then offer advice along the following lines ......

This is a real example.

"I always shoot manual as it gives me total control, you will learn it real quick; basically a faster shutter speed will give you darker images and a slower one brighter"

and not forgetting ....

"I have had my digital camera for several months now and am getting real good, I have a wedding next saturday, any tips?"

Another ting that really surprises me is just how much people are prepared to spend before they do any research.

A recent post asking about Studio lights was along the lines of ....

I have a couple of Elinchrom studio lights with soft-boxes (not a small outlay) I am having trouble balancing my lights My main light is too bright and my fill light is not bright enough, should both lights flash? My fill light is on but the flash from my main light is to bright"

Ok so digital photography will let you get there eventually by trial and error but a rudimentary knowledge of the inverse square law and a decent flash meter really can help.

neil_r wrote in post #12961766
Over the last few days I have had a bit more time to venture into parts of the forum that I have not been into for a very long time and I am really surprised by some of the things I have seen.

1. There are people giving advice that is simply wrong.
   
   
2. There are people offering opinions and then defending them as if they were set in stone and handed down to Moses on the mountain.
   
   
3. And despite some of the best moderators on the WWW there is often an undercurrent of rudeness and intolerance that is unpleasant but may just be a sign of the times.

It's always been here (and everywhere else too).

Jaymz wrote in post #12962441
It's always been here (and everywhere else too).

Possibly but I guess it was not so noticeable in the early days as there were far fewer people and posts, either that or I am using my retrospective rose tinted glasses again ....

neil_r wrote in post #12961766

1. There are people giving advice that is simply wrong.
   
2. There are people offering opinions and then defending them as if they were set in stone and handed down to Moses on the mountain.
   
3. And despite some of the best moderators on the WWW there is often an undercurrent of rudeness and intolerance that is unpleasant but may just be a sign of the times.

Here's the scary thing, Neil. Back in the day, you had to go to college, or spend big bucks in seminars and classes, or apprentice with a seasoned pro for many years to learn this craft.

I bought my first real camera in 2005, learned almost everything I know about photography in this forum, and in 2008 was dubbed "Master Flasher." All of a sudden I'm seen as some sort of expert and people are sending me PMs asking for advice.

Truth is, I'm still a beginner and don't really know squat.

But on the internet, you can pretend to be an expert. It's a great ego boost, apparently. You can give advice and render opinions even though you don't know squat.

And if you've made a modest living at photography for 30 years but still pretty much suck at it (those people exist in every profession), you can backup your advice and opinions with that experience, even if you really don't have a clue.

In my real job as an elected official, I have to do more than give opinions. I have to earn people's respect. If I don't do that, the folks won't let me keep my job.

On the internet, everyone has a voice, whether they have earned anyone's respect or not. So it's a real magnet for those with a desperate need for attention but have failed to gain an audience for their opinions elsewhere.

Neil,, I'm not a grumpy old git, but bugger me, I don't suffer fools gladly.

The other day some fool posted I should "re-train" (yep, that's the word he used) because I don't use a technique that's popular with many members here on POTN. The technique I use, I've found successful for me for over six years.

With 28 years of pro photography under my belt, four years of formal training in commercial photography at college level, plus countless workshops, he wants me to re-train?

I am not that old (36) but I have to agree with the OP.

My opinion is that with high quality digital camera gear becoming more and more affordable to the general public more and more of them are getting into photography. What you get is a flood of people with a "high end" camera and now think they are professional. Simply by JUST buying a camera. They have no understanding of composition, light, colour, mood, energy, anything. Then they download some presets for lightroom and start clicking like crazy having no real understanding of what they're doing. Then, they post those images online to thousands of other "photographers" with the same level of unknowledge and get a flood of "great shot" comments. Never ever learning what they did wrong or how they can improve because everyone they "associate" with has nothing to bring to the table. This is also a snowball effect as it spreads. This happens not only in photography. Just look at the music industry and the "artists" of today.

The terms "respect" and "common sense" are a thing of the past too and that is why you get the rudeness from others. Lack of knowledge, lack of common sense and lack of respect. Welcome to the World today.

Another thing I've noticed, and this happened with another website, is once the dilution has started (ie unknowledgeable users giving untruths and misinformation as facts to others) the damage is done. That is when the real knowledgeable people leave the site and go elsewhere looking for more knowledgeable photogs.

yogestee wrote in post #12962507
Neil,, I'm not a grumpy old git, but bugger me, I don't suffer fools gladly.

The other day some fool posted I should "re-train" (yep, that's the word he used) because I don't use a technique that's popular with many members here on POTN. The technique I use, I've found successful for me for over six years.

With 28 years of pro photography under my belt, four years of formal training in commercial photography at college level, plus countless workshops, he wants me to re-train?

Well Jurgen I was meaning to tell you .......

(You know he was more than likely 16 years old and still in school don't you? )